Message-ID: <143@hocse.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 1-Mar-84 17:27:17 EST
Article-I.D.: hocse.143
Posted: Thu Mar  1 17:27:17 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 3-Mar-84 09:02:58 EST
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Labs, Holmdel NJ
Lines: 48

A friend of mine not connected to the net wrote
this up on the subject of Heinlein and Friday.

*********************************FLAME ON********************************
In all the flaming of Heinlein on the net, not one person has stated the
real objection I have to FRIDAY: in real life, women do not fall
in love with their rapists.  (In fact, no one has even mentioned
the beginning or end of the novel at all.)  Most women are not so
calm and collected as Friday, and while she may be SUPPOSED to be
extraordinary, Heinlein does a grave disservice to all of us who
are not such "together" people.  I suppose most of Heinlein's
characters rise to the circumstances much better than we would;
it's just that in all the other circumstances, I can at least
imagine that I would do as well.  I think it's an important
consideration.  That is not to say that I believe that all fiction
must be "politically correct," just that one must consider the
consequences of one's words.  Heinlein may very well leave men with
the mistaken impression that rape is no worse than purse-snatching.
This is what pisses me off about FRIDAY.
*********************************FLAME OFF*******************************


For what its worth, I have a slightly different view on this
subject. I agree that the rape was gratuitous and unlikely, stuck
in to "arouse the audience(of men)." Friday even says at one point
the "rape is a poor interrogation technique," which happens to
be true. It seems unlikely that supposed professionals would
waste what turn out to be critical minutes(more likely hours, the
scene is dragged out forever)before moving on to something
more likely to be effective. I call this gratuitous.

The more important point is that given the character of Friday,
she is unlikely to forgive the rapist as easily as she does. 
A much more likely outcome would be her shooting him the
instant she recognizes him, and perhaps feeling a very small
twinge of regret upon hearing that he's supposed to have
been one of the "good guys." I'm not
saying it couldn't happen, just that it happens too quickly and
with too little development to have a shred of credibility.	

What is being requested here is a reasonable standard of
characterization, consistant with actual human psychology.
Friday was not portrayed as a masochist, nor as a victum
of the "Patty Hearst" syndrom, nor were any other
reasonable motives put forward. Hence her behavior seems
absurd. Nobody forgives that easily.

Message-ID: <670@orca.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 3-Mar-84 22:42:14 EST
Article-I.D.: orca.670
Posted: Sat Mar  3 22:42:14 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 4-Mar-84 09:11:53 EST
References: <143@hocse.UUCP>
Organization: Tektronix, Wilsonville OR
Lines: 25


	"In all the flaming of Heinlein on the net, not one person has
	stated the real objection I have to FRIDAY: in real life, women
	do not fall in love with their rapists ...  Most women are not
	so calm and collected as Friday, and while she may be SUPPOSED
	to be extraordinary, Heinlein does a grave disservice to all of
	us who are not such "together" people ... Heinlein may very
	well leave men with the mistaken impression that rape is no
	worse than purse-snatching."

Throughout the book, Heinlein hammers away at the theme that Friday did
not consider herself to be a human being and had a far different
attitude toward sex from that of "real" women.  This was instilled in
her during her upbringing as an "artificial person", the product of
genetic engineering.  During her schooling, she was told daily that she
was not a real person.  She was also given extensive training in
"doxology", the study of how to please a man in bed, so that when she
became of age and her contract was sold, she could serve as a
concubine.

I think that the purpose of the rape scene is to emphasize this
indifference.  Friday really did believe rape to be no worse than
purse-snatching.

  -- Andrew Klossner   (decvax!tektronix!orca!andrew)      [UUCP]
                       (orca!andrew.tektronix@rand-relay)  [ARPA]

Message-ID: <3628@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 12-Mar-84 16:43:25 EST
Article-I.D.: utzoo.3628
Posted: Mon Mar 12 16:43:25 1984
Date-Received: Mon, 12-Mar-84 16:43:25 EST
References: <149@hocse.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 26

*

   I've got an idea: why not interpret the novel Friday based on what's
in it, rather than what you wish was in it?
   The present controversy is over Friday's marrying a man who had 
previously raped her.  Well, perhaps she wouldn't have thought of it
that way; he was another AP like her, he was a member of her own profession
(giving them a common interest), he helped her escape onto the colony
planet (if I remember correctly). In addition, she wanted desperately
to belong to a family; getting married is a good first step towards that.
I don't remember whether or not there would have been other APs in the
colonies; from what I remember, she felt that she couldn't trust regular
people, because they might find out her background and turn against her.
In that case, the rapist might have been the one person she could trust.
Besides which, the guy had been kind to her (given that it was his job
to rape her; he was kinder than the others involved), and she hadn't
had to watch him as she was being raped. Perhaps that made it easier
to forget the incident (especially since she'd "turned off" at the time).
   I must admit that I was rather lukewarm about Friday when first I read the
book. Now, looking back on the half-remembered plot, and with the flames
going back and forth on the net to stimulate thinking about it, I'm
growing to appreciate it more. So, keep those flames burning!

-Kieran A. Carroll
...decvax!utzoo!kcarroll

Message-ID: <2465@brl-vgr.ARPA>
Date: Tue, 13-Mar-84 17:58:39 EST
Article-I.D.: brl-vgr.2465
Posted: Tue Mar 13 17:58:39 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 14-Mar-84 19:44:03 EST
References: <149@hocse.UUCP>
Organization: Ballistics Research Lab
Lines: 7

I thought that it was her training as a professional cloak-and-dagger
type courier that gained her the edge over the rape and torture, not
the fact that she was AP.

As a matter of fact, I think that using AP as a reason is contrary to
some of the points that Heinlein was trying to express.