| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426268 is a reply to message #426251] |
Sun, 05 January 2025 10:27   |
scott
Messages: 4380
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
> On Sat, 04 Jan 2025 23:39:27 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> I did a bit of with with a data-entry machine (several terminals
>> attached to a central unit with a tape drive to carry data to the
>> mainframe) that was made by a company called NBI. Again, it didn't
>> stand for anything, so we decided to say it stood for "Nothing But
>> Initials".
>
> Wonder why no tape company though to call itself “BPI”. If MIPS could do
> it as a CPU maker ...
>
> Apparently IBM was so named as a one-up on NCR: “National Cash Registers”
> were not as grandiose as “International Business Machines”.
A cite for that assertion would be useful. I have a computing scale
company scale that dates to the end of the 19th century. Note that
the compuing scale company was the company that became IBM after a
couple mergers.
"In 1911 there were some mergers between The International
Time Recording Company, The Computing Scale Company, and
the Tabulating Machine Company and they merge to form the
Computing Tabulating Recording Company {CTR}.
"In 1924 CTR had a name change to the international company
to what is now IBM."
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426277 is a reply to message #426249] |
Sun, 05 January 2025 19:26 |
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Originally posted by: Lawrence D'Oliveiro
On Sat, 04 Jan 2025 23:39:26 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> I think that was the one that could handle copy
> protection in the form of a hole burned in the oxide of the disk, where
> the program wouldn't run if it didn't get an error reading that sector.
That turned out to be one of the easier tricks to bypass.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426284 is a reply to message #426127] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 11:42 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 282
Registered: January 2012
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On 2025-01-01, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:14:08 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> In 50 years the most I’ve ever done with floating point was coding some
>> builtin functions for the Iron Spring PL/I compiler.
>
> Computer graphics (both 2D and 3D) uses floating point fairly heavily.
> Pixels may ultimately occupy integer coordinates (in some device-dependent
> space), but all the operations on the way there need to deal with
> fractions.
Well, yes, at least now that hardware floating point is just about
ubiquitous. But back in the day there were some (for the time) pretty
decent entirely integer-based 3D engines.
Niklas
--
You are in a maze of twisted sysadmins, all different.
-- Ben Aveling in asr
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426290 is a reply to message #426289] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 13:35 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5563
Registered: January 2012
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On 2025-01-06, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 Jan 2025 16:42:39 GMT
> Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, yes, at least now that hardware floating point is just about
>> ubiquitous. But back in the day there were some (for the time) pretty
>> decent entirely integer-based 3D engines.
>
> Fixed-point math can get you a long ways...
It takes the worry out of being close. :-)
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426291 is a reply to message #426265] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 14:33 |
Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 772
Registered: July 2012
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On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 15:09:06 +0100
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-05 12:01, Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Sat, 04 Jan 2025 22:49:41 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> On 2025-01-04 19:19, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> On 2025-01-04, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > There is also a form of copy protection: if an illegal copy of the
>>>> > game was detected, then once the player entered the church, instead of
>>>> > "Ave Maria" playing, a voice would cry "¡Pirata!" (Spanish for
>>>> > "pirate") ten times in descending tones before the game crashed.
>>>>
>>>> Drifting away from bit-banger sound for a moment, there was a utility
>>>> for the Amiga which would copy many copy-protected disks. When you
>>>> fired it up, it would sing "Yo-ho, yo-ho, a pirate's life for me" from
>>>> Disney's _Pirates of the Caribbean_.
>>>
>>> There was a popular utility like that in the PC world in the 80's, maybe
>>> named "copyrite". It was amazing.
>>
>> For the sake of future searches ... pretty sure it was 'copywrite'. I
>> remember having that. Might even have it somewhere, still.
>
> I thought it had an spelling error.
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaid_Software
The DOS program name would have been limited to 8 chars, so 'copyrite'
is not impossible. If I did have a copy once, it's failed to make over
from my previous n PCs.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426293 is a reply to message #426257] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 19:07 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8608
Registered: December 2011
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rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 00:10:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Then when IBM set up its consulting arm, that was another step up, as
>> “Global Business Systems”.
>
> The trend continued when they sold their fab lines to GlobalFoundries.
>
Next step up will be “Interplanetary”, I guess. IBM wouldn’t even have to
change their initials.
--
Pete
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426294 is a reply to message #426259] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 19:07 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8608
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 17:42:57 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:
>
>> Back when computers had console lights a common trick was to put an AM
>> radio near them since the sounds gave you an idea what your program was
>> doing.
>>
>> We played lots of music that way. I have heard but not confirmed than
>> on some IBM electromechanical accounting machine there was card deck
>> that would play the Star Spangled Banner by making the type bars vibrate
>> while printing a flag.
>
> It's been a long time but I believe it was a card sorter that would play
> Jingle Bells when fed an appropriate deck. I can't find the link but
> somewhere on the web there is a video of a computer and AM radio.
>
Some people had WAY too much time on their hands.
--
Pete
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426295 is a reply to message #426284] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 19:07 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8608
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2025-01-01, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:14:08 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> In 50 years the most I’ve ever done with floating point was coding some
>>> builtin functions for the Iron Spring PL/I compiler.
>>
>> Computer graphics (both 2D and 3D) uses floating point fairly heavily.
>> Pixels may ultimately occupy integer coordinates (in some device-dependent
>> space), but all the operations on the way there need to deal with
>> fractions.
>
> Well, yes, at least now that hardware floating point is just about
> ubiquitous. But back in the day there were some (for the time) pretty
> decent entirely integer-based 3D engines.
>
> Niklas
Interpress (and maybe Postscript, since it ripped Xerox off) used rational
numbers - fractions, stored as separate numerator and denominator. That
way the result could be computed to the dpi of the output device.
--
Pete
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426298 is a reply to message #426295] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 20:53 |
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Originally posted by: Lawrence D'Oliveiro
On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 17:07:20 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
> Interpress (and maybe Postscript, since it ripped Xerox off) used
> rational numbers - fractions, stored as separate numerator and
> denominator. That way the result could be computed to the dpi of the
> output device.
The trouble with fixed-point numbers is, you need to take care with
intermediate results to ensure they do not overflow the available dynamic
range, or underflow the available precision.
This is why floating-point is so much more convenient. I think all the 3D
graphics workstations, right from the 1980s if not before, had floating-
point hardware.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426302 is a reply to message #426294] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 20:59 |
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Originally posted by: rbowman
On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 17:07:19 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 17:42:57 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:
>>
>>> Back when computers had console lights a common trick was to put an AM
>>> radio near them since the sounds gave you an idea what your program
>>> was doing.
>>>
>>> We played lots of music that way. I have heard but not confirmed than
>>> on some IBM electromechanical accounting machine there was card deck
>>> that would play the Star Spangled Banner by making the type bars
>>> vibrate while printing a flag.
>>
>> It's been a long time but I believe it was a card sorter that would
>> play Jingle Bells when fed an appropriate deck. I can't find the link
>> but somewhere on the web there is a video of a computer and AM radio.
>>
>>
> Some people had WAY too much time on their hands.
I wondered how long it took to create that magic deck of cards every IBM
CE had that would print out a pretty girl on a stool.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426303 is a reply to message #426293] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 21:01 |
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Originally posted by: rbowman
On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 17:07:15 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 00:10:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Then when IBM set up its consulting arm, that was another step up, as
>>> “Global Business Systems”.
>>
>> The trend continued when they sold their fab lines to GlobalFoundries.
>>
>>
> Next step up will be “Interplanetary”, I guess. IBM wouldn’t even have
> to change their initials.
Unless they finally drop back to HAL.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426309 is a reply to message #426303] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 23:58 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5563
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2025-01-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Jan 2025 17:07:15 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 00:10:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Then when IBM set up its consulting arm, that was another step up, as
>>>> “Global Business Systems”.
>>>
>>> The trend continued when they sold their fab lines to GlobalFoundries.
>>
>> Next step up will be “Interplanetary”, I guess. IBM wouldn’t even have
>> to change their initials.
>
> Unless they finally drop back to HAL.
I'm sorry, Dave, but I'm afraid I can't do that.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426310 is a reply to message #426302] |
Mon, 06 January 2025 23:58 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5563
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2025-01-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> I wondered how long it took to create that magic deck of cards every IBM
> CE had that would print out a pretty girl on a stool.
I can't remember how long it took me to re-punch it from a printout.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426313 is a reply to message #426284] |
Tue, 07 January 2025 08:32 |
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Originally posted by: Chris Ahlstrom
Niklas Karlsson wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
> On 2025-01-01, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 13:14:08 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> In 50 years the most I’ve ever done with floating point was coding some
>>> builtin functions for the Iron Spring PL/I compiler.
>>
>> Computer graphics (both 2D and 3D) uses floating point fairly heavily.
>> Pixels may ultimately occupy integer coordinates (in some device-dependent
>> space), but all the operations on the way there need to deal with
>> fractions.
>
> Well, yes, at least now that hardware floating point is just about
> ubiquitous. But back in the day there were some (for the time) pretty
> decent entirely integer-based 3D engines.
I remember reading years ago that the ogg vorbis format never caught on
because it did not have an integer implementation, and those little
music-player sticks needed that. IIRC.
--
Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling!
Warm now be heart and limb! The cold stone is fallen;
Dark door is standing wide; dead hand is broken.
Night under Night is flown, and the Gate is open!
-- J. R. R. Tolkien
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426314 is a reply to message #426291] |
Tue, 07 January 2025 08:38 |
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Originally posted by: Chris Ahlstrom
Kerr-Mudd, John wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
> On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 15:09:06 +0100
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2025-01-05 12:01, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> On Sat, 04 Jan 2025 22:49:41 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2025-01-04 19:19, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>> > On 2025-01-04, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> There is also a form of copy protection: if an illegal copy of the
>>>> >> game was detected, then once the player entered the church, instead of
>>>> >> "Ave Maria" playing, a voice would cry "¡Pirata!" (Spanish for
>>>> >> "pirate") ten times in descending tones before the game crashed.
>>>> >
>>>> > Drifting away from bit-banger sound for a moment, there was a utility
>>>> > for the Amiga which would copy many copy-protected disks. When you
>>>> > fired it up, it would sing "Yo-ho, yo-ho, a pirate's life for me" from
>>>> > Disney's _Pirates of the Caribbean_.
>>>>
>>>> There was a popular utility like that in the PC world in the 80's, maybe
>>>> named "copyrite". It was amazing.
>>>
>>> For the sake of future searches ... pretty sure it was 'copywrite'. I
>>> remember having that. Might even have it somewhere, still.
>>
>> I thought it had an spelling error.
>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaid_Software
>
> The DOS program name would have been limited to 8 chars, so 'copyrite'
> is not impossible. If I did have a copy once, it's failed to make over
> from my previous n PCs.
I remember when long filenames were finally supported in Windows, and
so one had to use short format like TEXTFI~2.txt. Ugh.
--
I asked the engineer who designed the communication terminal's keyboards
why these were not manufactured in a central facility, in view of the
small number needed [1 per month] in his factory. He explained that this
would be contrary to the political concept of local self-sufficiency.
Therefore, each factory needing keyboards, no matter how few, manufactures
them completely, even molding the keypads.
-- Isaac Auerbach, IEEE "Computer", Nov. 1979
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426315 is a reply to message #426314] |
Tue, 07 January 2025 14:14 |
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Originally posted by: rbowman
On Tue, 7 Jan 2025 08:38:00 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> I remember when long filenames were finally supported in Windows, and so
> one had to use short format like TEXTFI~2.txt. Ugh.
The 'Progra~1' when you were trying to add something to Path was
particularly annoying.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426316 is a reply to message #426314] |
Tue, 07 January 2025 14:47 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5563
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2025-01-07, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
> I remember when long filenames were finally supported in Windows, and
> so one had to use short format like TEXTFI~2.txt. Ugh.
Some survivors of that era refer to its perpetrator as MICROS~1.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426320 is a reply to message #426316] |
Tue, 07 January 2025 16:02 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 282
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2025-01-07, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-01-07, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>
>> I remember when long filenames were finally supported in Windows, and
>> so one had to use short format like TEXTFI~2.txt. Ugh.
>
> Some survivors of that era refer to its perpetrator as MICROS~1.
And when there was talk of splitting the company for anti-trust reasons,
that the two resulting companies should be MICROS~1 and MICROS~2.
Niklas
--
Arguing about window managers, or shells, is like arguing
about which colour wrench to use to pound in screws.
-- David Gersic, asr
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426356 is a reply to message #425566] |
Sat, 11 January 2025 15:43 |
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Originally posted by: Bud Frede
David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> writes:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in news:viodfp$fp5p$2@dont-
> email.me:
>
>> Here’s one I came up with:
>>
>> I can remember when spacebars were longer, because there were fewer
>> modifier keys on computer keyboards.
>
> True! I loved the feel of the DECwriter LA-36 II keyboard. The spacebar was
> below the other keys, in the center where it should be, and no modifier keys
> on that row.
>
> I can remember when Radio Shack sold ICs (Integrated Circuits) and building
> my first computer from components, like baton switches.
I used to buy parts at Rat Shack too. I stopped finding anything useful
at their stores at some point and stopped shopping there entirely.
They used to be a good place to buy batteries too. They sold so many
that it seemed like you always got fresh batteries.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426357 is a reply to message #426356] |
Sat, 11 January 2025 16:24 |
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Originally posted by: rbowman
On Sat, 11 Jan 2025 15:43:36 -0500, Bud Frede wrote:
> David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> writes:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in news:viodfp$fp5p$2@dont-
>> email.me:
>>
>>> Here’s one I came up with:
>>>
>>> I can remember when spacebars were longer, because there were fewer
>>> modifier keys on computer keyboards.
>>
>> True! I loved the feel of the DECwriter LA-36 II keyboard. The
>> spacebar was below the other keys, in the center where it should be,
>> and no modifier keys on that row.
>>
>> I can remember when Radio Shack sold ICs (Integrated Circuits) and
>> building my first computer from components, like baton switches.
>
> I used to buy parts at Rat Shack too. I stopped finding anything useful
> at their stores at some point and stopped shopping there entirely.
>
> They used to be a good place to buy batteries too. They sold so many
> that it seemed like you always got fresh batteries.
When they were the only game in town you made do. Some of their stuff
wasn't too bad. I still have a HTX-202 2M handi-talkie. It's big and
clunky compared to my Yaesu but it worked.
I was able to pick up some Arduino stuff when the local store went out of
business. They were selling everything including the shelves at a deep
discount.
On the best day they ever had they were no Fry's, but then Fry's is gone
too. These days most of what I get comes in an Amazon package.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426586 is a reply to message #426582] |
Tue, 28 January 2025 23:23 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5563
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2025-01-28, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> I can remember when we just called it “slash”, not “forward slash”.
That was because of a certain company in Redmond, who promoted the
use of backslashes that became so widespread that for a while many
people thought that the default "slash" was a backslash.
Fortunately that silliness seems to have waned.
Now all we have to do is to get people to properly distinguish
between brackets and parentheses. It would be nice if they also
distinguished between dash and hyphen, but that's probably a
lost cause.
--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426587 is a reply to message #426586] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 00:52 |
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Originally posted by: rbowman
On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 04:23:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> Now all we have to do is to get people to properly distinguish between
> brackets and parentheses. It would be nice if they also distinguished
> between dash and hyphen, but that's probably a lost cause.
Curly or square? I like Python but I've been burned by lists and
comprehensions.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426588 is a reply to message #426586] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 04:12 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 1018
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> Now all we have to do is to get people to properly distinguish
> between brackets and parentheses.
[Brackets], <brokets>, {braces} and (parentheses). I don't have those
German/European things that look a little like << and >> on my keyboard.
> It would be nice if they also distinguished between dash and hyphen,
> but that's probably a lost cause.
I only have "-" on my keyboard but -- typography quibbles aside -- I
cope adequately without the dash.
I'm old enough to recall seeing '@' used to list prices.
6 blivets @ $4.00/doz. $2.00
3 qt. groo @ 2 bits/gal bit and a half [1]
Your sig left herinbelow to flaunt the ASCII ribbon! Growing
popularity of UTF punctuation is a fulminating annoyance.
> /~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
> \ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
> X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
> / \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey
[1] Okay, okay, I'm not old enough to remember things priced in bits
and never lived where it was commonplace but my mother was and
did.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426589 is a reply to message #426588] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 06:22 |
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Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 2025-01-29 10:12, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>
>> Now all we have to do is to get people to properly distinguish
>> between brackets and parentheses.
>
> [Brackets], <brokets>, {braces} and (parentheses). I don't have those
> German/European things that look a little like << and >> on my keyboard.
«Guillemets» AltGr + z/x in my Linux.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillemet
«Guillemets may also be called angle, Latin, Castilian, Spanish, or
French quotes/quotation marks.[citation needed]»
>
>> It would be nice if they also distinguished between dash and hyphen,
>> but that's probably a lost cause.
>
> I only have "-" on my keyboard but -- typography quibbles aside -- I
> cope adequately without the dash.
— [Compose][-][-][-]
>
>
--
Cheers, Carlos.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426594 is a reply to message #426586] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 14:01 |
John Levine
Messages: 1487
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It appears that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:
> On 2025-01-28, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I can remember when we just called it “slash”, not “forward slash”.
>
> That was because of a certain company in Redmond, who promoted the
> use of backslashes that became so widespread that for a while many
> people thought that the default "slash" was a backslash.
Yeah, I know the guy who did it. In his defense, MS-DOS was written by
people who were familiar with PDP-10 TOPS-10 which used a slash for
command line switches. So when he added hierarchical directories
to DOS 2.0, what was a guy gonna do?
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426598 is a reply to message #426589] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 18:07 |
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Originally posted by: Lawrence D'Oliveiro
On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 12:22:54 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> «Guillemets»
I’ve been using them to delimit metasyntactic variables in some
documentation. E.g.
.B setfilters «dbname» «filterdefs-filename»
replaces the filters in
.B «dbname»
with those from the given file. The syntax of filter specs is explained in
.B FILTER SYNTAX
below.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426599 is a reply to message #426594] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 18:11 |
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Originally posted by: Lawrence D'Oliveiro
On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 19:01:55 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:
> ... MS-DOS was written by people who were familiar with PDP-10 TOPS-10
> which used a slash for command line switches.
No, MS-DOS was a copy of a system written by people (a person) who were
familiar with PDP-10 TOPS-10 which used a slash for command line switches.
> So when he added hierarchical directories to DOS 2.0, what was a guy
> gonna do?
Remember, Microsoft also switched their C compiler to using Unix-style
dashes for options, instead of slashes. I remember users got quite annoyed
because you could no longer omit file extensions to use defaults: you
always had to specify them explicitly, Unix-style.
Using slash as a path separator in MS-DOS 2 wouldn’t have broken anything.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426600 is a reply to message #426594] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 18:16 |
cross
Messages: 55
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Member |
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In article <vndtv3$29pt$1@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> It appears that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:
>> On 2025-01-28, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I can remember when we just called it “slash”, not “forward slash”.
>>
>> That was because of a certain company in Redmond, who promoted the
>> use of backslashes that became so widespread that for a while many
>> people thought that the default "slash" was a backslash.
>
> Yeah, I know the guy who did it. In his defense, MS-DOS was written by
> people who were familiar with PDP-10 TOPS-10 which used a slash for
> command line switches. So when he added hierarchical directories
> to DOS 2.0, what was a guy gonna do?
Didn't MS-DOS 2.0 have a kinda-hidden command to switch
into "Unix" mode, using `-` for command line options and
`/` for pathname seperator? `switchar`, I believe. For
some reason, it was removed from later DOS versions.
- Dan C.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426601 is a reply to message #426586] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 18:16 |
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Originally posted by: Lawrence D'Oliveiro
On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 04:23:13 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> That was because of a certain company in Redmond, who promoted the use
> of backslashes that became so widespread that for a while many people
> thought that the default "slash" was a backslash.
I’ve been trying to promote the term “DOSlexia” to describe the use of the
backslash in places where the slash should go -- like in URLs.
> It would be nice if they also distinguished between dash and hyphen,
> but that's probably a lost cause.
I learned to distinguish between “-” and “\-” when using groff to write
man pages. If I am in any doubt as to which to use, I just have to
generate PDF output, where the difference becomes much more obvious.
Also, from the NamesList.txt for Unicode 16.0:
002D HYPHEN-MINUS
= hyphen, dash
= minus sign
* used generically for hyphen, minus sign or en dash, all of
which have dedicated alternatives
x (soft hyphen - 00AD)
x (modifier letter minus sign - 02D7)
x (hyphen - 2010)
x (non-breaking hyphen - 2011)
x (figure dash - 2012)
x (en dash - 2013)
x (hyphenation point - 2027)
x (hyphen bullet - 2043)
x (minus sign - 2212)
x (roman uncia sign - 10191)
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426602 is a reply to message #426600] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 18:32 |
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Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 2025-01-30 00:16, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <vndtv3$29pt$1@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>> It appears that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:
>>> On 2025-01-28, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can remember when we just called it “slash”, not “forward slash”.
>>>
>>> That was because of a certain company in Redmond, who promoted the
>>> use of backslashes that became so widespread that for a while many
>>> people thought that the default "slash" was a backslash.
>>
>> Yeah, I know the guy who did it. In his defense, MS-DOS was written by
>> people who were familiar with PDP-10 TOPS-10 which used a slash for
>> command line switches. So when he added hierarchical directories
>> to DOS 2.0, what was a guy gonna do?
>
> Didn't MS-DOS 2.0 have a kinda-hidden command to switch
> into "Unix" mode, using `-` for command line options and
> `/` for pathname seperator? `switchar`, I believe. For
> some reason, it was removed from later DOS versions.
Dunno. I started directly with version three something.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426604 is a reply to message #426600] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 20:04 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 29 Jan 2025 23:16:53 +0000, Dan Cross wrote:
> In article <vndtv3$29pt$1@gal.iecc.com>, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
> wrote:
>> It appears that Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> said:
>>> On 2025-01-28, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can remember when we just called it “slash”, not “forward slash”.
>>>
>>> That was because of a certain company in Redmond, who promoted the use
>>> of backslashes that became so widespread that for a while many people
>>> thought that the default "slash" was a backslash.
>>
>> Yeah, I know the guy who did it. In his defense, MS-DOS was written by
>> people who were familiar with PDP-10 TOPS-10 which used a slash for
>> command line switches. So when he added hierarchical directories to DOS
>> 2.0, what was a guy gonna do?
>
> Didn't MS-DOS 2.0 have a kinda-hidden command to switch into "Unix"
> mode, using `-` for command line options and `/` for pathname seperator?
> `switchar`, I believe. For some reason, it was removed from later DOS
> versions.
Yes, SWITCHAR=- (for example).
But, as I recall, programs processed switches themselves, so it relied on
programs retrieving that value via a system call, and using it. Few did.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426605 is a reply to message #426604] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 20:08 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 01:04:05 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>> Didn't MS-DOS 2.0 have a kinda-hidden command to switch into "Unix"
>> mode, using `-` for command line options and `/` for pathname
>> seperator?
>> `switchar`, I believe. For some reason, it was removed from later DOS
>> versions.
>
> Yes, SWITCHAR=- (for example).
>
> But, as I recall, programs processed switches themselves, so it relied
> on programs retrieving that value via a system call, and using it. Few
> did.
Ah yes. A call to INT 21H with AX=3700H would get the switch character to
DL, and AX=3701H would set the switch character from DL.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426607 is a reply to message #426605] |
Wed, 29 January 2025 20:36 |
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Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 2025-01-30 02:08, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 01:04:05 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>
>>> Didn't MS-DOS 2.0 have a kinda-hidden command to switch into "Unix"
>>> mode, using `-` for command line options and `/` for pathname
>>> seperator?
>>> `switchar`, I believe. For some reason, it was removed from later DOS
>>> versions.
>>
>> Yes, SWITCHAR=- (for example).
>>
>> But, as I recall, programs processed switches themselves, so it relied
>> on programs retrieving that value via a system call, and using it. Few
>> did.
>
> Ah yes. A call to INT 21H with AX=3700H would get the switch character to
> DL, and AX=3701H would set the switch character from DL.
I never used that, not even knew about that.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
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| Re: Creative Ways To Say How Old You Are [message #426609 is a reply to message #426605] |
Thu, 30 January 2025 07:29 |
cross
Messages: 55
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Member |
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In article <m001o3F4lq8U13@mid.individual.net>,
Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 01:04:05 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>
>>> Didn't MS-DOS 2.0 have a kinda-hidden command to switch into "Unix"
>>> mode, using `-` for command line options and `/` for pathname
>>> seperator?
>>> `switchar`, I believe. For some reason, it was removed from later DOS
>>> versions.
>>
>> Yes, SWITCHAR=- (for example).
>>
>> But, as I recall, programs processed switches themselves, so it relied
>> on programs retrieving that value via a system call, and using it. Few
>> did.
>
> Ah yes. A call to INT 21H with AX=3700H would get the switch character to
> DL, and AX=3701H would set the switch character from DL.
Ah. This is likely why they removed it: insufficient demand.
- Dan C.
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