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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33031 is a reply to message #32993] |
Sat, 12 January 2013 23:38   |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/12/13 6:41 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 1/12/2013 1:32 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>> It looks like the decades-long debate has finally been decided once
>> and for all:
>>
>> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-goku-vs-superman
>>
>>
>> Dex ^__^
>>
>
> The thought strikes me that since the debate started, Superman has
> undergone a lot of power inflation.
Well, depends. His OLDER incarnations made the current one look like a
girly-man. The Silver Age Superman produced powers as the plot demanded
CONSTANTLY.
But that said, yeah. Happens to all comicbook characters, pretty much,
and especially the ones near the top of the scale. A lot of their draw
is doing stuff that's awesome, and that generally leads to an ascending
power spiral.
One can't really complain about that, though, without pointing out that
the same's true for Goku. He's sure a long way from the hardheaded kid
with a magic staff that we met the first couple volumes of manga.
My own comments on the match are on my LJ, here:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33093 is a reply to message #32909] |
Sun, 13 January 2013 09:45 |
Hand-of-Omega
Messages: 29
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> My own comments on the match are on my LJ, here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:http://seawas p.livejournal.com
Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain. A better move would
be to fly into outer space, but he doesn't know if Goku can/would
follow him there (he could, but wouldn't, since he can't breathe out
there).
One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most efficient
use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
before they attack.
Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
*wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame if he
loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
And they showed that well, I think.
Dex
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33094 is a reply to message #32993] |
Sun, 13 January 2013 09:52 |
Hand-of-Omega
Messages: 29
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On Jan 12, 5:41 pm, David Johnston <Da...@block.net> wrote:
> On 1/12/2013 1:32 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
>> It looks like the decades-long debate has finally been decided once
>> and for all:
>
>> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-...
>
>> Dex ^__^
>
> The thought strikes me that since the debate started, Superman has
> undergone a lot of power inflation.
Eh, yes and no. The Earth-1/Silver Age Supes is the one they allude to
early on (who accidently destroyed a solar system by sneezing at it!),
and he was the Classic Superman, and probably lasted the longest in
print (the original tv show and movies were basically him). Then, in
the 80s, he was massively depowered when DC rebooted their universe,
although he enjoyed a couple of intense power ups, also described in
the video (this is also basically the character in Superman the
Animated Series and Lois & Clark). That Superman is also now no more,
as DC has recently rebooted AGAIN, and the current Superman has only
been published for a little over a year now. But, as shown in the
Crisis storylines, he's still nowhere near as powerful as his previous
incarnation (loosely represented by Superboy-Prime)...
Sadly, I dropped out of comics. Has anyone been reading this, and can
you tell us roughly how the current Supes measures up?
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33117 is a reply to message #33093] |
Sun, 13 January 2013 14:22 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/13/13 9:45 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> My own comments on the match are on my LJ, here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>>
>> --
>> Sea Wasp
>> /^\
>> ;;;
>> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:http://seawasp.livejournal.com
>
> Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
> is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain.
Only AFTER they'd been fighting for a while, up to and including
wrecking the entire Lexcorp Building and punching holes through a bunch
of others. Even if the city were EVACUATED you'd expect there'd be some
holdouts, and SOMEONE died in that sequence.
> One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
> the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
> this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
> where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most efficient
> use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
> on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
> fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
> before they attack.
The same's true of Superman fans.
>
> Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
> *wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
> who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
> capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame if he
> loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
>
> And they showed that well, I think.
For BOTH of them. Superman never uncorks his full power until it's
NEEDED. Both Goku and Superman PREFER to do the classic "I kick the
power up only as much as my opponent seems to require", never going to
the next level until it's clear that they HAVE to. For Superman it's a
matter of control and policy, for Goku it's a matter of fighting
preferences; Superman likes to use the minimum force needed to solve the
problem, and Goku wants you to have time to show everything you've got.
Yes, if either of them went straight for "Maximum Power Screw You!"
whoever did that first would undoubtedly win against the other, but
neither of them WOULD do that.
Superman also doesn't kill -- this is almost an inviolate law -- and
he'd NEVER do it to someone like Goku who's clearly just doing this for
the hell of it. That was one thing that made me twitch at the end.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33149 is a reply to message #32909] |
Sun, 13 January 2013 23:46 |
Hand-of-Omega
Messages: 29
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On Jan 13, 1:22 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 1/13/13 9:45 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
>> On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>> My own comments on the match are on my LJ, here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>
>>> --
>>> Sea Wasp
>>> /^\
>>> ;;;
>>> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.comBlog:http://seawasp. livejournal.com
>
>> Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
>> is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain.
>
> Only AFTER they'd been fighting for a while, up to and including
> wrecking the entire Lexcorp Building and punching holes through a bunch
> of others. Even if the city were EVACUATED you'd expect there'd be some
> holdouts, and SOMEONE died in that sequence.
>
>> One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
>> the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
>> this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
>> where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most efficient
>> use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
>> on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
>> fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
>> before they attack.
>
> The same's true of Superman fans.
>
>
>
>> Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
>> *wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
>> who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
>> capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame if he
>> loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
>
>> And they showed that well, I think.
>
> For BOTH of them. Superman never uncorks his full power until it's
> NEEDED. Both Goku and Superman PREFER to do the classic "I kick the
> power up only as much as my opponent seems to require", never going to
> the next level until it's clear that they HAVE to. For Superman it's a
> matter of control and policy, for Goku it's a matter of fighting
> preferences; Superman likes to use the minimum force needed to solve the
> problem, and Goku wants you to have time to show everything you've got.
>
> Yes, if either of them went straight for "Maximum Power Screw You!"
> whoever did that first would undoubtedly win against the other, but
> neither of them WOULD do that.
>
Yep, exactly my point. I do know that that also applies to Supes, but
I mentioned Goku as I recall this type of argument
being made for him *all the time*, far more than Superman's supporters
use it. But it does apply equally to both, yes.
> Superman also doesn't kill -- this is almost an inviolate law -- and
> he'd NEVER do it to someone like Goku who's clearly just doing this for
> the hell of it. That was one thing that made me twitch at the end.
>
> --
The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
how much force he can take (Supes doesn't have access to all the data
and calculations we're given here, after all), and since he rarely
fights at that level, he can't completely control that much power
anyways. So, he decides to do what he can to end the escalating fight
as quickly as possible, and just hopes that Son can take it...but he
can't.
Still not as egregious as the ending of Spider-Man vs. Batman...
http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-batman-vs-spider-man
Dex
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33151 is a reply to message #33149] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 00:11 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/13/13 11:46 PM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> On Jan 13, 1:22 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 1/13/13 9:45 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>
>>> On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> My own comments on the match are on my LJ, here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sea Wasp
>>>> /^\
>>>> ;;;
>>>> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.comBlog:http://seawasp. livejournal.com
>>
>>> Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
>>> is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain.
>>
>> Only AFTER they'd been fighting for a while, up to and including
>> wrecking the entire Lexcorp Building and punching holes through a bunch
>> of others. Even if the city were EVACUATED you'd expect there'd be some
>> holdouts, and SOMEONE died in that sequence.
>>
>>> One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
>>> the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
>>> this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
>>> where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most efficient
>>> use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
>>> on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
>>> fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
>>> before they attack.
>>
>> The same's true of Superman fans.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
>>> *wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
>>> who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
>>> capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame if he
>>> loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
>>
>>> And they showed that well, I think.
>>
>> For BOTH of them. Superman never uncorks his full power until it's
>> NEEDED. Both Goku and Superman PREFER to do the classic "I kick the
>> power up only as much as my opponent seems to require", never going to
>> the next level until it's clear that they HAVE to. For Superman it's a
>> matter of control and policy, for Goku it's a matter of fighting
>> preferences; Superman likes to use the minimum force needed to solve the
>> problem, and Goku wants you to have time to show everything you've got.
>>
>> Yes, if either of them went straight for "Maximum Power Screw You!"
>> whoever did that first would undoubtedly win against the other, but
>> neither of them WOULD do that.
>>
> Yep, exactly my point. I do know that that also applies to Supes, but
> I mentioned Goku as I recall this type of argument
> being made for him *all the time*, far more than Superman's supporters
> use it. But it does apply equally to both, yes.
>
>> Superman also doesn't kill -- this is almost an inviolate law -- and
>> he'd NEVER do it to someone like Goku who's clearly just doing this for
>> the hell of it. That was one thing that made me twitch at the end.
>>
>> --
> The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
> THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
> how much force he can take (Supes doesn't have access to all the data
> and calculations we're given here, after all), and since he rarely
> fights at that level, he can't completely control that much power
> anyways. So, he decides to do what he can to end the escalating fight
> as quickly as possible, and just hopes that Son can take it...but he
> can't.
>
Which is actually not quite believable to me; even if you're a lot more
powerful than Goku, in general a DBZ character will take the hit. He'd
go flying out of the solar system, broken, unconscious or dead, but not,
like, vaporized.
> Still not as egregious as the ending of Spider-Man vs. Batman...
>
> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-batman-vs-spider-man
>
I suspected that was partly a "screw you" to all the Batman fanboys who
make him into the Bat-God. But hey, maybe they could just turn him to
RoboBatman.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33238 is a reply to message #33149] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 12:47 |
David Johnston
Messages: 220
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/13/2013 9:46 PM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
> THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
> how much force he can take
I just concluded that Goku was knocked out of his boot.
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33239 is a reply to message #33238] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 13:19 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/14/13 12:47 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 1/13/2013 9:46 PM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
>> The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
>> THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
>> how much force he can take
>
> I just concluded that Goku was knocked out of his boot.
Well, they did the "disintegrating figure" fade with Goku but not
Superman, which usually indicates that the one guy's gone up in smoke.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33240 is a reply to message #32909] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 13:42 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:32:21 -0800, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
> It looks like the decades-long debate has finally been decided once and
> for all:
>
> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-
goku-vs-superman
>
I liked the backstory part where the history of each character was given,
but when the actual fight started, I lost interest pretty quickly.
The reason is that both Goku and Superman are animated characters and the
only way for them to have a "fight" is for someone to animate one.
The animator would decide who wins that fight, it would have nothing to
do with who is "stronger."
The decision might be based on who the animator likes better, a flip of a
coin, an internet poll, a computer analyses of...something (though I
contend that since both are animated, there is nothing to really analyze).
Either way, the decision of who "wins" is a decision of whoever the
animator is.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33241 is a reply to message #33240] |
Mon, 14 January 2013 15:07 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/14/13 1:42 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jan 2013 00:32:21 -0800, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>
>> It looks like the decades-long debate has finally been decided once and
>> for all:
>>
>> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-
> goku-vs-superman
>>
>
> I liked the backstory part where the history of each character was given,
> but when the actual fight started, I lost interest pretty quickly.
>
> The reason is that both Goku and Superman are animated characters and the
> only way for them to have a "fight" is for someone to animate one.
Which is true of anything involving fictional characters. Does that
mean you have no interest in any fight scene, in any fictional context?
Because that's EXACTLY the same thing: it's decided by the person
writing it.
In this case, the lead-up shows the data and approaches that the people
doing the (very skillfully done) animation edits combined with new stuff
they did on their own are using to COME to the decision of the outcome.
But based on what you say, this means you have no interest in seeing
any conflict between any fictional characters, period, even within their
own shows or books, because the same "well, it's just some guy deciding
who wins" in all cases.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33712 is a reply to message #33151] |
Fri, 18 January 2013 14:07 |
Gerardo Campos
Messages: 147
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 01/13/2013 11:11 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 1/13/13 11:46 PM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>> On Jan 13, 1:22 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 1/13/13 9:45 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > My own comments on the match are on my LJ,
>>>> > here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>>>
>>>> > --
>>>> > Sea Wasp
>>>> > /^\
>>>> > ;;;
>>>> > Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.comBlog:http://seawasp. livejournal.com
>>>> >
>>>
>>>> Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
>>>> is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain.
>>>
>>> Only AFTER they'd been fighting for a while, up to and including
>>> wrecking the entire Lexcorp Building and punching holes through a bunch
>>> of others. Even if the city were EVACUATED you'd expect there'd be some
>>> holdouts, and SOMEONE died in that sequence.
>>>
>>>> One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
>>>> the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
>>>> this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
>>>> where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most efficient
>>>> use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
>>>> on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
>>>> fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
>>>> before they attack.
>>>
>>> The same's true of Superman fans.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
>>>> *wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
>>>> who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
>>>> capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame if he
>>>> loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
>>>
>>>> And they showed that well, I think.
>>>
>>> For BOTH of them. Superman never uncorks his full power until it's
>>> NEEDED. Both Goku and Superman PREFER to do the classic "I kick the
>>> power up only as much as my opponent seems to require", never going to
>>> the next level until it's clear that they HAVE to. For Superman it's a
>>> matter of control and policy, for Goku it's a matter of fighting
>>> preferences; Superman likes to use the minimum force needed to solve the
>>> problem, and Goku wants you to have time to show everything you've got.
>>>
>>> Yes, if either of them went straight for "Maximum Power Screw You!"
>>> whoever did that first would undoubtedly win against the other, but
>>> neither of them WOULD do that.
>>>
>> Yep, exactly my point. I do know that that also applies to Supes, but
>> I mentioned Goku as I recall this type of argument
>> being made for him *all the time*, far more than Superman's supporters
>> use it. But it does apply equally to both, yes.
>>
>>> Superman also doesn't kill -- this is almost an inviolate law -- and
>>> he'd NEVER do it to someone like Goku who's clearly just doing this for
>>> the hell of it. That was one thing that made me twitch at the end.
>>>
>>> --
>> The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
>> THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
>> how much force he can take (Supes doesn't have access to all the data
>> and calculations we're given here, after all), and since he rarely
>> fights at that level, he can't completely control that much power
>> anyways. So, he decides to do what he can to end the escalating fight
>> as quickly as possible, and just hopes that Son can take it...but he
>> can't.
>>
>
> Which is actually not quite believable to me; even if you're a lot more
> powerful than Goku, in general a DBZ character will take the hit. He'd
> go flying out of the solar system, broken, unconscious or dead, but not,
> like, vaporized.
>
IIRC, the later Saiyans that arrived Earth were vaporized.
>
>> Still not as egregious as the ending of Spider-Man vs. Batman...
>>
>> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-batman-vs-spider-man
>>
>>
>
> I suspected that was partly a "screw you" to all the Batman fanboys who
> make him into the Bat-God. But hey, maybe they could just turn him to
> RoboBatman.
>
Putting aside the fact why they will start the fight to the death,
Spiderman style is more of tenderizing, incapacitating and spider-web
wrapping the foe, so the authorities can pick him/her up.
I enjoyed the verbal jive from Spiderman, though felt there was room to
insert more.
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33713 is a reply to message #33712] |
Fri, 18 January 2013 14:14 |
David Johnston
Messages: 220
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/18/2013 12:07 PM, Gerardo Campos wrote:
> On 01/13/2013 11:11 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 1/13/13 11:46 PM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>> On Jan 13, 1:22 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> On 1/13/13 9:45 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> > <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> My own comments on the match are on my LJ,
>>>> >> here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>>>>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Sea Wasp
>>>> >> /^\
>>>> >> ;;;
>>>> >> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.comBlog:http://seawasp. livejournal.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>>
>>>> > Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
>>>> > is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain.
>>>>
>>>> Only AFTER they'd been fighting for a while, up to and including
>>>> wrecking the entire Lexcorp Building and punching holes through a bunch
>>>> of others. Even if the city were EVACUATED you'd expect there'd be some
>>>> holdouts, and SOMEONE died in that sequence.
>>>>
>>>> > One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
>>>> > the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
>>>> > this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
>>>> > where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most efficient
>>>> > use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
>>>> > on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
>>>> > fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
>>>> > before they attack.
>>>>
>>>> The same's true of Superman fans.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
>>>> > *wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
>>>> > who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
>>>> > capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame if he
>>>> > loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
>>>>
>>>> > And they showed that well, I think.
>>>>
>>>> For BOTH of them. Superman never uncorks his full power until it's
>>>> NEEDED. Both Goku and Superman PREFER to do the classic "I kick the
>>>> power up only as much as my opponent seems to require", never going to
>>>> the next level until it's clear that they HAVE to. For Superman it's a
>>>> matter of control and policy, for Goku it's a matter of fighting
>>>> preferences; Superman likes to use the minimum force needed to solve
>>>> the
>>>> problem, and Goku wants you to have time to show everything you've got.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, if either of them went straight for "Maximum Power Screw You!"
>>>> whoever did that first would undoubtedly win against the other, but
>>>> neither of them WOULD do that.
>>>>
>>> Yep, exactly my point. I do know that that also applies to Supes, but
>>> I mentioned Goku as I recall this type of argument
>>> being made for him *all the time*, far more than Superman's supporters
>>> use it. But it does apply equally to both, yes.
>>>
>>>> Superman also doesn't kill -- this is almost an inviolate law -- and
>>>> he'd NEVER do it to someone like Goku who's clearly just doing this for
>>>> the hell of it. That was one thing that made me twitch at the end.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>> The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
>>> THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
>>> how much force he can take (Supes doesn't have access to all the data
>>> and calculations we're given here, after all), and since he rarely
>>> fights at that level, he can't completely control that much power
>>> anyways. So, he decides to do what he can to end the escalating fight
>>> as quickly as possible, and just hopes that Son can take it...but he
>>> can't.
>>>
>>
>> Which is actually not quite believable to me; even if you're a lot more
>> powerful than Goku, in general a DBZ character will take the hit. He'd
>> go flying out of the solar system, broken, unconscious or dead, but not,
>> like, vaporized.
>>
>
> IIRC, the later Saiyans that arrived Earth were vaporized.
>
>>
>>> Still not as egregious as the ending of Spider-Man vs. Batman...
>>>
>>> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-batman-vs-spider-man
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I suspected that was partly a "screw you" to all the Batman fanboys who
>> make him into the Bat-God. But hey, maybe they could just turn him to
>> RoboBatman.
>>
>
> Putting aside the fact why they will start the fight to the death,
> Spiderman style is more of tenderizing, incapacitating and spider-web
> wrapping the foe, so the authorities can pick him/her up.
>
> I enjoyed the verbal jive from Spiderman, though felt there was room to
> insert more.
>
>
>
I suppose it has to be a battle to the death just because that's in the
title.
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33765 is a reply to message #33713] |
Fri, 18 January 2013 18:21 |
Gerardo Campos
Messages: 147
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 01/18/2013 01:14 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 1/18/2013 12:07 PM, Gerardo Campos wrote:
>> On 01/13/2013 11:11 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> On 1/13/13 11:46 PM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>>> On Jan 13, 1:22 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> > On 1/13/13 9:45 AM, Hand-of-Omega wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Jan 12, 10:38 pm, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> >> <seaw...@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>> My own comments on the match are on my LJ,
>>>> >>> here:http://seawasp.livejournal.com/362737.html
>>>> >
>>>> >>> --
>>>> >>> Sea Wasp
>>>> >>> /^\
>>>> >>> ;;;
>>>> >>> Website:http://www.grandcentralarena.comBlog:http://seawasp. livejournal.com
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >
>>>> >> Hm, ok. Well, Superman *does* try to lead Goku out of the city (which
>>>> >> is apparently deserted today!^^) to a rocky plain.
>>>> >
>>>> > Only AFTER they'd been fighting for a while, up to and including
>>>> > wrecking the entire Lexcorp Building and punching holes through a
>>>> > bunch
>>>> > of others. Even if the city were EVACUATED you'd expect there'd be
>>>> > some
>>>> > holdouts, and SOMEONE died in that sequence.
>>>> >
>>>> >> One thing I'm glad the simulation did was at least try to be true to
>>>> >> the character of the fighters. All too often, when we geeks discuss
>>>> >> this sort of thing, we fall prey to the "Gamer Fallacy", which is
>>>> >> where we basically describe how WE would fight with the most
>>>> >> efficient
>>>> >> use of their powers that we can think of. For ex, DBZ fans love to go
>>>> >> on about how Goku would win against any character from any other
>>>> >> fiction, because he can move faster than them and knock them out
>>>> >> before they attack.
>>>> >
>>>> > The same's true of Superman fans.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Which completely ignores the fact that canon Goku NEVER does this, he
>>>> >> *wants* to see what you've got! And since there are many characters
>>>> >> who, while definitely weaker and slower than him, still have powers
>>>> >> capable of one-shotting even him, Goku only has himself to blame
>>>> >> if he
>>>> >> loses to, say, Lina's Ragna Blade or whatever...
>>>> >
>>>> >> And they showed that well, I think.
>>>> >
>>>> > For BOTH of them. Superman never uncorks his full power until it's
>>>> > NEEDED. Both Goku and Superman PREFER to do the classic "I kick the
>>>> > power up only as much as my opponent seems to require", never going to
>>>> > the next level until it's clear that they HAVE to. For Superman it's a
>>>> > matter of control and policy, for Goku it's a matter of fighting
>>>> > preferences; Superman likes to use the minimum force needed to solve
>>>> > the
>>>> > problem, and Goku wants you to have time to show everything you've
>>>> > got.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, if either of them went straight for "Maximum Power Screw You!"
>>>> > whoever did that first would undoubtedly win against the other, but
>>>> > neither of them WOULD do that.
>>>> >
>>>> Yep, exactly my point. I do know that that also applies to Supes, but
>>>> I mentioned Goku as I recall this type of argument
>>>> being made for him *all the time*, far more than Superman's supporters
>>>> use it. But it does apply equally to both, yes.
>>>>
>>>> > Superman also doesn't kill -- this is almost an inviolate law -- and
>>>> > he'd NEVER do it to someone like Goku who's clearly just doing this
>>>> > for
>>>> > the hell of it. That was one thing that made me twitch at the end.
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> The best spin I can put for that is that Goku is easily one of, if not
>>>> THE toughest being he's ever personally fought, and so he doesn't know
>>>> how much force he can take (Supes doesn't have access to all the data
>>>> and calculations we're given here, after all), and since he rarely
>>>> fights at that level, he can't completely control that much power
>>>> anyways. So, he decides to do what he can to end the escalating fight
>>>> as quickly as possible, and just hopes that Son can take it...but he
>>>> can't.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Which is actually not quite believable to me; even if you're a lot more
>>> powerful than Goku, in general a DBZ character will take the hit. He'd
>>> go flying out of the solar system, broken, unconscious or dead, but not,
>>> like, vaporized.
>>>
>>
>> IIRC, the later Saiyans that arrived Earth were vaporized.
>>
>>>
>>>> Still not as egregious as the ending of Spider-Man vs. Batman...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.screwattack.com/shows/originals/death-battle/deat h-battle-batman-vs-spider-man
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suspected that was partly a "screw you" to all the Batman fanboys who
>>> make him into the Bat-God. But hey, maybe they could just turn him to
>>> RoboBatman.
>>>
>>
>> Putting aside the fact why they will start the fight to the death,
>> Spiderman style is more of tenderizing, incapacitating and spider-web
>> wrapping the foe, so the authorities can pick him/her up.
>>
>> I enjoyed the verbal jive from Spiderman, though felt there was room to
>> insert more.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I suppose it has to be a battle to the death just because that's in the
> title.
Yea, but at least the reason on why the Superman vs. Goku, fight started
is more credible. Goku being social handicapped, just started fighting
with Superman without making clear his intentions was for fun,
Adding a stop at Penguin Village, would have been great
--
Saludos
Gerardo Campos
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #33766 is a reply to message #33765] |
Fri, 18 January 2013 20:02 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On 1/18/13 6:21 PM, Gerardo Campos wrote:
> On 01/18/2013 01:14 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> Yea, but at least the reason on why the Superman vs. Goku, fight started
> is more credible. Goku being social handicapped, just started fighting
> with Superman without making clear his intentions was for fun,
I dunno; given how they emphasized Supes' intellect, I'd think that
first bit: "Hey, you look strong! Let's fight!" would be a clue, and
later dialogue reinforced that idea.
>
> Adding a stop at Penguin Village, would have been great
>
C'mon, Arale-chan would've beaten BOTH of them.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Superman vs. Goku: The Final Battle! [message #34599 is a reply to message #33713] |
Fri, 25 January 2013 22:41 |
Hand-of-Omega
Messages: 29
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc
On Friday, January 18, 2013 1:14:28 PM UTC-6, David Johnston wrote:
>
> I suppose it has to be a battle to the death just because that's in the
>
> title.
I missed it before, but the rules for their match ups (presented at the very end of the vids, for some reason) do specify that every fight MUST end in a fatality (regardless if that fits the actual characters' personalities or not). Probably just to be "edgy"...
Dex
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