| Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210260] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 19:15  |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
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I recently installed the MESS emulator and by accident chose the Japanese
version of the Commodore 64. I was amazed that the colors of the start
screen were different (white and blue instead of light blue and
blue). Also that it had just 36862 bytes free.
Some Google results suggest it had a different kernal, key mappings and
other. But I cannot see why this causes the quite "big" difference in
free bytes to the US (and probably all other countries) version.
And why are the colors different?
X'post + f'up2 comp.sys.cbm
--
Andreas
Linux - The choice of a GNU generation
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210261 is a reply to message #210260] |
Mon, 02 September 2013 22:50  |
Oldbitcollector
Messages: 277
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, September 2, 2013 7:15:05 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> I recently installed the MESS emulator and by accident chose the Japanese
>
> version of the Commodore 64. I was amazed that the colors of the start
>
> screen were different (white and blue instead of light blue and
>
> blue). Also that it had just 36862 bytes free.
>
Sounds like the SX screen only with a missing byte.
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210293 is a reply to message #210261] |
Tue, 17 September 2013 05:06 |
Spiro Trikaliotis
Messages: 380
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hello,
as I am currently waiting on some mechanic, I had a little bit of time
to look into the Japanese ROMs.
On 2013-09-03, Oldbitcollector <jeffledger@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, September 2, 2013 7:15:05 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>> I recently installed the MESS emulator and by accident chose the Japanese
>>
>> version of the Commodore 64. I was amazed that the colors of the start
>>
>> screen were different (white and blue instead of light blue and
>>
>> blue). Also that it had just 36862 bytes free.
>>
>
> Sounds like the SX screen only with a missing byte.
I compared to ROMs as found on zimmers.net (906145-02) to the known ROMs
of the C64 (901227-01, -02, -03). The ROM is clearly a step between the
-02 ROM and the -03 ROM. Differences are:
- The BASIC ROMs are identical
- The charset ROMs differ, naturally (I did not check this in detail)
- $E45C (whatever that is - a checksum?) has differing value:
906145-02: $00 (Japan)
901227-01: $2B
901227-02 $5C
901227-03: $81
901246-01: $63 (4064, Educator 64)
251104-04: $B3 (SX64)
390852-01: $81 (C64GS)
- The colors are different
- The patch to the screen line calculations (as found in the -03 ROM) is
present in the JP ROM. That's the reason why it must be a step between
the -02 and -03 ROMs: This patch is already available, but other
changes from -03 are missing.
Without this patch, writing a line of more than 80 chars on the last
line of the editor and then deleting the last chars until char #80 is
deleted crashes the C64.
- Different PETSCII value for PI ($B0 instead of $DE on all other C64
and VIC20 machines); also different screen code for PI ($70 instead of
$5E)
- Different keyboard decoding tables
- No Robert Russel (RR) and Bob Yannes (BY) markings at the end of the
ROM before the 6502 interrupt vector table ($FFF6)
- BASIC start at $1000 instead of $0800 (for no apparent reason)
I added the JP additions to the cbmrom documentation at
http://cbmrom.trikaliotis.net/, so anyone who wants can have a look into
the differences.
Regards
Spiro
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210294 is a reply to message #210260] |
Tue, 17 September 2013 09:11 |
void
Messages: 8
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 19:15:05 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> I recently installed the MESS emulator and by accident chose the
> Japanese version of the Commodore 64. I was amazed that the colors of
> the start screen were different (white and blue instead of light blue
> and blue). Also that it had just 36862 bytes free.
>
> Some Google results suggest it had a different kernal, key mappings and
> other. But I cannot see why this causes the quite "big" difference in
> free bytes to the US (and probably all other countries) version.
>
> And why are the colors different?
>
> X'post + f'up2 comp.sys.cbm
From Floodgap
http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/j64.html
Introduced 1983
Hardware Somewhat different (and incompatible) Kernal and BASIC to
accomodate Japanese katakana characters, 46 total (plus punctuation,
diacritics, etc.); many graphic characters replaced in the Char ROM with
the new Japanese characters. Breadbox case and original brown keycaps;
SHIFT-LOCK replaced with C= LOCK for the purpose of getting at the
katakana; modified keycaps to show the new characters with the colour
keys no longer present and the remaining graphic characters significantly
rearranged. Machine started up in English but different colour scheme and
only 36863 bytes free; see screenshot. Both Markus and On the Edge
remember the original screen as black on pink, but the screenshot and
corresponding ROM definitely aren't.
Graphics and Sound Identical to the breadbox 64.
Comments
Hidehiko has a Japanese 64 keyboard but with the U.S. Kernal and BASIC
ROMs. Analysis continues on where the missing bytes went.
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210295 is a reply to message #210294] |
Tue, 17 September 2013 09:45 |
Hg
Messages: 162
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 17/09/2013 18:11, void wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 19:15:05 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
>> I recently installed the MESS emulator and by accident chose the
>> Japanese version of the Commodore 64. I was amazed that the colors of
>> the start screen were different (white and blue instead of light blue
>> and blue). Also that it had just 36862 bytes free.
>>
>> Some Google results suggest it had a different kernal, key mappings and
>> other. But I cannot see why this causes the quite "big" difference in
>> free bytes to the US (and probably all other countries) version.
>>
>> And why are the colors different?
>>
>> X'post + f'up2 comp.sys.cbm
>
> From Floodgap
>
> http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/j64.html
>
> Introduced 1983
> Hardware Somewhat different (and incompatible) Kernal and BASIC to
> accomodate Japanese katakana characters, 46 total (plus punctuation,
> diacritics, etc.); many graphic characters replaced in the Char ROM with
> the new Japanese characters. Breadbox case and original brown keycaps;
> SHIFT-LOCK replaced with C= LOCK for the purpose of getting at the
> katakana; modified keycaps to show the new characters with the colour
> keys no longer present and the remaining graphic characters significantly
> rearranged. Machine started up in English but different colour scheme and
> only 36863 bytes free; see screenshot. Both Markus and On the Edge
> remember the original screen as black on pink, but the screenshot and
> corresponding ROM definitely aren't.
> Graphics and Sound Identical to the breadbox 64.
>
> Comments
> Hidehiko has a Japanese 64 keyboard but with the U.S. Kernal and BASIC
> ROMs. Analysis continues on where the missing bytes went.
>
Did any Commodore machine ever sell well in Japan? Seems like all they
ever used was MSX for 8bit stuff and that incredible 16bit X68000.
--
T
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210298 is a reply to message #210293] |
Tue, 17 September 2013 16:51 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Spiro Trikaliotis wrote on 17. September 2013:
>
> as I am currently waiting on some mechanic, I had a little bit of time
> to look into the Japanese ROMs.
>
> On 2013-09-03, Oldbitcollector <jeffledger@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, September 2, 2013 7:15:05 PM UTC-4, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>> I recently installed the MESS emulator and by accident chose the Japanese
>>>
>>> version of the Commodore 64. I was amazed that the colors of the start
>>>
>>> screen were different (white and blue instead of light blue and
>>>
>>> blue). Also that it had just 36862 bytes free.
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like the SX screen only with a missing byte.
>
> I compared to ROMs as found on zimmers.net (906145-02) to the known ROMs
> of the C64 (901227-01, -02, -03). The ROM is clearly a step between the
> -02 ROM and the -03 ROM. Differences are:
[...]
Thanks for the research. Although I (I started this :-) don't really
understand everything.
--
Andreas
Linux - The choice of a GNU generation
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210300 is a reply to message #210295] |
Wed, 18 September 2013 05:41 |
Hidehiko Ogata
Messages: 19
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On 2013/09/17 22:45, Hg-san wrote:
>
> Did any Commodore machine ever sell well in Japan? Seems like all they
> ever used was MSX for 8bit stuff and that incredible 16bit X68000.
Vic-20 had a good presence in the early days (called Vic-1001 over here).
C64? Not a chance... except dumped stock was a reasonable source of SID
chips for a while :). C= Japan had become pretty much a non-factor by
the time the Amiga came out.
X68K was a super-niche machine with a huge price tag. Most guys stuck
with mundane NEC or Fujitsu stuff, but they too were darned expensive.
I think MSX did well in the home computer market, until it was gobbled up
by Famicom (Japanese NES).
--
// }{idehiko ()gata "I'm not like other people.
\X/ Amigan since '86 I can't stand pain.
It hurts me." - Daffy Duck
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210301 is a reply to message #210295] |
Wed, 18 September 2013 08:29 |
Anssi Saari
Messages: 329
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hg <Hg@Hg.Hg> writes:
> On 17/09/2013 18:11, void wrote:
> Did any Commodore machine ever sell well in Japan? Seems like all they
> ever used was MSX for 8bit stuff and that incredible 16bit X68000.
Apparently the Japanese version of the VIC-20, the VIC-1001 did well
there. The kickass arcade game conversions were probably a big selling
point. Assuming they were actually available over there...
Wikipedia says the VIC-1001 was released in Japan in 1980, earlier than
the US. But after the VIC, the Japanese apparently owned their own
market. MSX was years later.
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210305 is a reply to message #210301] |
Thu, 19 September 2013 06:11 |
Mayhem
Messages: 108
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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The Vic-1001 was out in Japan at least eight months before it was released in the US. A lot of the reasons why and how are covered in a couple of books, so I don't need to go into that area.
A lot of the early software, especially on cartridge, was written in Japan, and mostly by HAL Labs (they of Kirby etc, and now part of Nintendo). It was only when the computer was being scheduled for release in the US did Commodore put together a Western group of developers (read: kids) to produce some additional launch software that side.
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| Re: Japanese Commodore 64 [message #210306 is a reply to message #210298] |
Thu, 19 September 2013 14:14 |
Spiro Trikaliotis
Messages: 380
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hello Andreas,
On 2013-09-17, Andreas Kohlbach <sep13.9.ankman@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the research. Although I (I started this :-) don't really
> understand everything.
Perhaps the most important one for you: On a "regular" (non-Japanese)
C64, you have BASIC RAM from $0800 to $9FFF, resulting in
$9FFF-$0800=$97FF a.k.a. 38911 bytes free.
In the Japanese C64, the lower limit $0800 has been moved to $1000 - for
no apparant reason! No change in the KERNAL suggests why this has been
moved. The only idea I have is to make room for sprite data in the area
$0800-$0FFF.
Anyway, on the Japanese C64, you have BASIC RAM from $1000 to $9FFF,
resulting in $9FFF - $1000 = $8FFF a.k.a. 36863 bytes free.
Regards
Spiro
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