Message-ID: <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 1-Feb-85 10:38:18 EST
Article-I.D.: cbscc.4714
Posted: Fri Feb  1 10:38:18 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 2-Feb-85 14:55:09 EST
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories , Columbus
Lines: 26

~
This was on here in Columbus (CH. 28)...

Does anyone know why the "young" Spock was limping?  After Pike,
Spock, et al were beamed down to the surface (before checking out
the vibrating plantlife), we see Spock limping around.

Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's
nature prevents him from lying) lied.

Also, why couldn't Pike tell everyone what was going on?  He could
have blinked out Morse Code (all good Captains know it), or even
ASCII sequences.

I really like this episode, but what do y'all think of these points?

Too bad the editors at CH 28 cut out the scene where Pike talked
to the Green Animal Woman in the cavern...

swc

"You say she was green and danced around like a harem girl?"
"You say the back of their heads looked like gluteus maximus'?"
"You say she was blond and beautiful but really just a lump of flesh?"

"A PERFECT specimen..."  -Vena   and -Your Urologist

Message-ID: <3559@mit-eddie.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 4-Feb-85 01:29:51 EST
Article-I.D.: mit-eddi.3559
Posted: Mon Feb  4 01:29:51 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 5-Feb-85 04:22:15 EST
References: <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Reply-To: barmar@mit-eddie.UUCP (Barry Margolin)
Organization: MIT, Cambridge, MA
Lines: 13

In article <4714@cbscc.UUCP> swc@cbscc.UUCP (Scott W. Collins) writes:
 > Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's
 > nature prevents him from lying) lied.

Since when does Spock's nature prevent him from lying?  He has lied in
other episodes.  In particular, he was lying in "The Enterprise
Incident" when he told the female Romulan commander that Vulcans cannot
lie, and he later lied in the same episode when he said that he had used
the Vulcan death grip and killed Kirk.
-- 
    Barry Margolin
    ARPA: barmar@MIT-Multics
    UUCP: ..!genrad!mit-eddie!barmar

Message-ID: <138@ihlpg.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 4-Feb-85 18:50:15 EST
Article-I.D.: ihlpg.138
Posted: Mon Feb  4 18:50:15 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 6-Feb-85 01:32:06 EST
References: <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 35

 >  Does anyone know why the "young" Spock was limping?  After Pike,
 >  Spock, et al were beamed down to the surface (before checking out
 >  the vibrating plantlife), we see Spock limping around.
 >  
 >  Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's
 >  nature prevents him from lying) lied.
 >  
 >  Also, why couldn't Pike tell everyone what was going on?  He could
 >  have blinked out Morse Code (all good Captains know it), or even
 >  ASCII sequences.
 >  
 >  I really like this episode, but what do y'all think of these points?


Spock limping:  I don't think that the episode came right out and explained
why he was limping, but if it didn't, maybe we can make up a good reason for
it.  We know that the Enterprise crew was involved in savage fighting
prior to its arrival at the planet, several crewmen were dead, and we see
why they died from what Pike relived.  Maybe Spock was injured in the fight.

Spock lying:  I agree with the other reply in that Spock has lied in several
episodes.  I can't remember the name of the episode, but in one, Kirk came
right out and questioned Spock about it.  Spock answered that lying is not
illogical, and therefore not against his nature.

Pike blinking:  Ah.  Finally one that I have a good answer for.  Blinking
is usually a reflex, and it was not under voluntary control in Pike's case.
Therefore, he could blink, but could not control his blinking enough to
signal someone.

Any more ideas, anyone??


					Be humane:
					Adopt a TRIBBLE!!

Message-ID: <2733@dartvax.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 4-Feb-85 09:38:17 EST
Article-I.D.: dartvax.2733
Posted: Mon Feb  4 09:38:17 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 6-Feb-85 23:27:58 EST
References: <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 13

 >  
 >  Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's
 >  nature prevents him from lying) lied.

From what I understand, "The Managerie" was actually a diced up version
of an original pilot episode called "The Cage."  In the early days of
"Star Trek", Spock hadn't been that well defined as to how emotionless
he was.  These things come with time...how often during the early episodes
did Spock get involved in a fight and you sat there and yelled "Use the
neck pinch!"  It hadn't been invented yet, that's why.

---
"Fermp?"                                    Peter Merchant

Message-ID: <425@grendel.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 4-Feb-85 08:22:16 EST
Article-I.D.: grendel.425
Posted: Mon Feb  4 08:22:16 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 8-Feb-85 03:29:35 EST
References: <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Organization: DEC ULTRIX Applications Center, MD
Lines: 14

 >  Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's
 >  nature prevents him from lying) lied.

Vulcans never bluff.  Vulcans sometimes lie. ("Sir, there is a  multi-
legged  creature crawling on your shoulder.") One assumes that Vulcans
lie when it is the logical thing to do.

 >  ... He could have blinked out Morse Code (all good Captains know it),
 >  or even ASCII sequences.

I bet you remember the old Superman episode with the paralized old man
in the wheel chair blinking out some message in morse code...
-- 
Fred Avolio      {decvax,seismo}!grendel!avolio      301/731-4100 x4227

Message-ID: <226@unm-cvax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 7-Feb-85 04:59:38 EST
Article-I.D.: unm-cvax.226
Posted: Thu Feb  7 04:59:38 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 11-Feb-85 05:21:27 EST
References: <2733@dartvax.UUCP> <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Reply-To: cs2532aa@unm-cvax.UUCP (Satan's Employee)
Organization: The Spud Patrol - We Monitor Reality
Lines: 43

[ Vulcan speak with forked tongue, Kemo Sabee]

 >>  Also, I don't recall that anyone resolved the fact that Spock (who's
 >>  nature prevents him from lying) lied.
 > 
 >  From what I understand, "The Managerie" was actually a diced up version
 >  of an original pilot episode called "The Cage."  In the early days of
 >  "Star Trek", Spock hadn't been that well defined as to how emotionless
 >  he was.  These things come with time...how often during the early episodes
 >  did Spock get involved in a fight and you sat there and yelled "Use the
 >  neck pinch!"  It hadn't been invented yet, that's why.
 > 
 >  "Fermp?"                                    Peter Merchant

Actually, Spock's lies in "The Menagerie" were part of the newly filmed
story used to frame "The Cage".

BTW:  That whole idea about "Vulcans never lie" is utter bunk.  Also,
Vulcans are NOT "emotionless", they merely have a high degree of control
over their minds and bodies and simply choose not to DISPLAY emotion in
most situations.  Spock is a special case...the pressures placed on him
by his dual heritage cause him to overcompensate, thus, he acts "more
Vulcan than a Vulcan".  It is likely that the "lack of control" displayed
by Spock in "The Cage" stems from his years in Starfleet, away from other
Vulcans.  Perhaps a later (between the original pilot and the time of the
regular series) encounter, maybe an embarassing one with Sarek, resulted
in the "eminently logical" Spock that is most familiar to the Star Trek
fan community at large.  There's a lot more to it than that.  For a HUGE
amount of background information on Vulcan society, read Jean Lorrah's
excellent novel "The Vulcan Academy Murders" (Star Trek #20).  I found it
highly enjoyable for the same reason that I liked "The Final Reflection":
lots and lots of new, believable, non-conflicting material for the Star
Trek Canon.

    "I'm a doctor, not a can of industrial-strengh drain cleaner!"

		.rne.

-----
Real World . . Ernie Longmire / 311 Don St. SE / Los Lunas, NM  87031-9405
UUCP . . . . . {{purdue,cmc12,ihnp4}!lanl,ucbvax}!unmvax!unm-cvax!cs2532aa
-----
But first...Are You Experienced?

Message-ID: <8800003@convexs.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 8-Feb-85 10:19:00 EST
Article-I.D.: convexs.8800003
Posted: Fri Feb  8 10:19:00 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 11-Feb-85 06:46:21 EST
References: <4714@cbscc.UUCP>
Lines: 19
Nf-ID: #R:cbscc:-471400:convexs:8800003:000:622
Nf-From: convexs!ayers    Feb  8 09:19:00 1985


*****************
Spock lying:  I agree with the other reply in that Spock has lied in several
episodes.  I can't remember the name of the episode, but in one, Kirk came
right out and questioned Spock about it.  Spock answered that lying is not
illogical, and therefore not against his nature.
****************


There was one episode (the first cloaking device?  HELP ME MORTY!)
where, when questioned about his ability to lie (But Your're Vulcan,
and Vulcan's Can't Lie!) that he (or was it Kirk? HELP! CORE DUMP!)
said, "but half human, and humans can..."



				blues, II

		(a mind is a wonderful thing to waste...)

Message-ID: <313@psivax.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 7-Feb-85 18:25:33 EST
Article-I.D.: psivax.313
Posted: Thu Feb  7 18:25:33 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 13-Feb-85 03:09:23 EST
References: <4714@cbscc.UUCP> <2733@dartvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley friesen)
Organization: Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA
Lines: 21
Summary: 

In article <2733@dartvax.UUCP> merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) writes:
 > 
 > From what I understand, "The Managerie" was actually a diced up version
 > of an original pilot episode called "The Cage."  In the early days of
 > "Star Trek", Spock hadn't been that well defined as to how emotionless
 > he was.
 > 
	Close, actually in the original pilot(The Cage) Spock was
*not* at all emotionless, it was the female, human 2nd-in-command
called Number One who was emotionless. Unfortunately this combo
(a female exec/emotionless female) was too much for the network
people and they insisted she be scratched.  So Roddenberry transfered
her personality to Mr Spock when he promoted him to executive
officer.
-- 

				Sarima (Stanley Friesen)

{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
 or
quad1!psivax!friesen

Message-ID: <1098@hou5e.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 20-Feb-85 08:28:12 EST
Article-I.D.: hou5e.1098
Posted: Wed Feb 20 08:28:12 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 22-Feb-85 20:05:05 EST
References: <8800003@convexs.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Holmdel, NJ
Lines: 16

Since this has come up again, I'll post this to the net instead of
sending mail,

Spock is questioned about lying in the Enterprise Incident by the
Romulan Commander.  She asks him whether it is a myth that Vulcans
cannot lie.  Spock replies that it is no myth.  Later when it is
clear he *has* lied, she questions him again. 

Spock explained that ideally Vulcans don't lie, but that contact
with other races has shown that blindly telling the truth could
not work.  He says such lies are what Earthmen call "white lies"
and they are sometimes necessary to perserve the peace.

ellen bart