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From: cbcscmst@cs1.UUCP (Michael Steven Temkin)
Newsgroups: net.micro.cbm
Subject: Re: Thoughts on new 64, 1541, and Geos that you come up with at 4 AM.
Message-ID: <235@cs1.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 19-Aug-86 00:37:57 EDT
Article-I.D.: cs1.235
Posted: Tue Aug 19 00:37:57 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 21-Aug-86 02:19:19 EDT
References: <1691@garfield.UUCP>
Organization: Calif State Univ, Northridge, Computer Science Dept
Lines: 172
Keywords: Letdown.
Summary: Don't cut it *that* short!
In article <1691@garfield.UUCP>, john13@garfield.UUCP writes:
>
> Price: people who are looking for their first computer are staying away from
> the new 64's in droves around here. These are people who haven't heard
> about Quantumlink and Geos, and once they hear the higher price, they don't
> stay around long enough for an explanation. The only people who are interested
> seem to be veteran 64 owners who want Geos because they've heard so much
> about it. Quantumlink in Canada is not feasible yet, with the $9 per hour
> surcharge to connect through Datapac (yes, every hour!). If this could be
> eliminated, EVERYONE, I mean *EVERYONE* with a modem would be signed up
> tomorrow.
Obviously you are not a vetern C64er yourself. The price of Quantum Link is
not $9/hour, it is $9.95 per month. If you use the PLUS (+) services, you get
the first hour each month free. After that it is $0.06/minute, which is only
$3.60/hour compared to CompuServe's $6.00/hour (or is it $7.00/hour now) rate.
Besides the cost, Q-Link is heads above CompuServe for CBM users. I don't
know about you, but I hate wading through all the garbage CompuServe shoves
at you.
> Geos: a disappointment in many ways to me. I'd rather see a paint program
> stick to monochrome hi-res and do it *well* than try to imitate a Koala Pad
> and do it poorly. Or else go all out for multi-colour. Not fumble around
> somewhere in between. The Geos main screen lends itself to the worst colour
> bleeding I've ever seen,
geoPaint is not a Koala Pad imitation, far from it, you obviously were either
too far gone at 4am, in which case I suggest you stay off the net at that time,
or don't know what you are talking about. It is, if anything a MacPaint copy.
> ...and the Preferences Manager seems unpredictable in
> its choice of colours - you set 'em up, but they usually just revert to what
> they were before.
Try reading the manual, if you can read, and you will find out that you must
save your preferences before exiting. I do agree that they should be
changeable for just the session, but such is life, maybe the future versions
will do this.
> The word processor I like (for beginners - I would have
> been happy with it when I first got my 64). Joystick control is poor, why not
> have 256 different joystick speeds? And as for the "Real Soon" drivers for
> other devices - a 15 byte routine will return X & Y coordinates and status
> of button for a lightpen. Same for Koalapad, I would guess. If worry is about
> lightpen compatibility, how tough can it be to have one 15 byte routine for
> Koala lightpen, another for Flexidraw pen, etc? There is really no excuse
> for any delay in these! Same holds for printer drivers. Let's not get carried
> away with "beta-testing" things to death!
The word processor is a beginners software, and rightly so since those who buy
the C64c will undoubtably be beginners. However, they still should have an
advanced version for us *true* veteran C64ers (I am a veteran of 4+ years).
> Drive speed seems marginally better;
> the amount of disk access tends to negate this advantage, and the Berkely
> Softworks fast-loading routine's strange noises and light-flashing always
> makes me uncomfortable. Why not provide some sort of facility for Vorpal
> loading (from Epyx - the fastest software loading utility I've seen by several
> orders of magnitude)? I mean, let's get all the troops together on this one.
The drive speed is *greatly* improved, maybe you have been spoiled by your
Vorpal cartridge, that you forgot what 1541 speed is really like.
> Geos manuals: i'd really like to be more positive in this article; I really
> would. But the bad spots stand out so much! There are dozens of glaring
> misspellings in the Geos manual ("droping...visable...refered...occured")
> that almost leapt off the page at me as I casually browsed through it. Can
> it ever have been proofread??? I paid close attention only to the beginning,
> about how to begin to use Geos if you've never used a computer before; this
> is supposed to be the big advantage of Geos, how friendly it is to the first-
> time user. The first thing I encountered was the dreaded "back up your disk
> before using it" bit (shades of Big Blue!), a pet peeve of mine (2 master
> disks makes more sense to me). Reason: if you ever zapped your master, you
> could copy all the files back on to it. I can at least see the reasoning, even
> if I would do it differently. However, the next thing it suggests for you to
> do is scratch the Geos Kernal off your backup disk ("because it's already on
> the Geos master disk"). Maybe they intend for you to have numerous backups and
> work disks, but this was VERY UNCLEAR to me. Who knows, maybe a first-time
> user would be able to follow the instructions without making a fatal mistake,
> but I somehow doubt it.
As you have said you "paid close attention only to the beginning," after which
it explains that only the original disk is bootable. You should only use it
for starting the system, the backups are made of the geoPaint and geoWrite
programs. The reason you scratch the 3 files is because they are copy protected
and will not boot on backups, so why have them take up space. I suggest you
try to get to sleep by 1am or 2am and reread the manual during daylight hours
and not by the light of the bats.
> What else? The above thoughts all arose out of my initial impressions on
> Geos and the new 64. Since then, I've done some more fooling with the soft-
> ware. I like the calculator. I like the notepad. (But then I also like my
> Amiga ;-). I really dislike the paint program - the copy on the work disk
> has developed some problems where it doesn't fill properly and the colour
> selection is sometimes munged. Give me Koalastuff, Flexidraw, or Doodle
> anytime.
Seems to me that you are an Amiga *PRUDE*.
> The wordprocessor appeals to me as a way to introduce tyros to
> using a computer for printing. For the enlightened, I would love lots of
> keyboard shortcuts, with Amiga-style reminders in the joystick menus. The
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> amount of time it's taking for anything Geos-compatible to come out still
> amazes me (this includes device drivers & applications prgs & revised versions
> of older prgs). *** SUGGESTION TO WHOEVER IS STILL READING *** : have Geos
> boot a program, leaving only enough code hidden under ROM (preferably $D000)
> to boot Geos back up again. That way your favourite game or whatever can go
> back to Geos when you quit. Memory-tight programs like word-processors
> or spreadsheets could incorporate their own loaders for re-booting Geos after
> you are finished with them. And new programs, written to run UNDER Geos could
> still access all the desktop utilities and such. Doesn't seem like too much
> to ask. Making a system LOOK like a more powerful one is all well and good,
> all the beta-testing and code no doubt ported straight from C sources on
> bigger micros and intensive disk access; yet this shouldn't be an end in
> itself. People (especially people with money to spend) respect the finer
> points of the software too (still can't get over how much the joystick control
> reminds me of Music Construction Set).
As far as accessing the deskpad utilities and fastloader, that should be covered
in the users reference guide. Read below carefully as it is a letter I received
from someone at Berkeley Softworks. I have omitted his name and address so he
will not get overloaded with mail, or in trouble with his company.
> John Russell, very sleepy owner of an old 64 (great machine) and fan of the
> Amiga (GREAT machine).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Disclaimer: All opinions are mine, not those of...you know the routine!
************************** Start of Mail Message *************************
The Programmers Manual is *really* close to being finished.
We are currently getting the last bugs out.
Believe me, when it gets done, it will be a thing of beauty. Included
currently (and I'm sure when it is released) are code examples for
using Dialog boxes, menus, icons, etc.
It will include descriptions of all GEOS routines and variables, as well as
examples to provide some context.
No promises here, but I think that it is going to the publisher in about
two weeks. After that, it is all up to the publisher to get it out.
If you want more info, talk to GEOS-mike on QLINK. He is the one writing
the manual. Try not to hit him with too many questions. He has been answering
around 40-60 messages each day, not counting the articles that he has been
uploading as well.
I agree with your comments. GEOS will only be as good as the applications that
support it. With any luck we can get enough developers interested, and
really make this thing fly.
When Commodore comes out with a RAM-disk for the C64 (which I know they are
getting ready to release) it will make the system even better.
If you can't tell, I am very excited about what is happening with the C64
right now.
I think that in the coming months 64 users will see a lot of good things.
************************** End of Mail Message *************************
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Mike Temkin
{inhp4,psivax,ttidca}!csun!cs1!cbcscmst
Ours is not to question why...Or is it?
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