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From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP (Paul DuBois)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Evidences for Religion (reposting)
Message-ID: <1315@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 22-Jul-85 16:47:09 EDT
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.1315
Posted: Mon Jul 22 16:47:09 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 24-Jul-85 07:47:21 EDT
Organization: UW-Madison Primate Center
Lines: 34

>>> [Rich Rosen]
>>> Hardly.  Chances of survival, overall longterm benefits, life in general,
>>> are optimized by cooperation.  Cooperation, and the maximal freedom and
>>> benefit for all, are optimized by non-interference.
>> 
>> Hardly, my foot.  Why should any of these be optimized?  That is, why
>> should any of them be optimized, given your outlook?  I may *agree*
>> that these things should be optimized, but what reason can *you* give,
>> other than bare assertion, that they *should* be?  You have given us an
>> "ought" without a reason for the ought, other than just "I say so".
>> 
>> Perhaps there is a presupposition lurking somewhere in your rationale...
>> bolstered, presumably, by wishful thinking that "freedom" (undefined) and
>> "benefit" (also undefined - both probably subjective) are of some value.
>> Perhaps you are right - but why should anyone believe you are?  You
>> can't give a reason, so you end up with proof by assertion.
>> 
>> Paul DuBois     {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois        --+--
> 
> Padraig Houlahan.
> This is not just an assertion on Rich's part. There is empirical evidence
> demonstrating the desirability of freedom, and the desirability of
> increasing one's chances of survival. Look at any region of the world where
> refugees are; They are fleeing totalitarian societies, famine, and
> war. This fact is all that is needed to justify Rich's point of view, and
> consequently show that freedom etc is of some value.

Only if you justify the value of survival.

-- 
                                                                    |
Paul DuBois     {allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois        --+--
                                                                    |
"More agonizing, less organizing."                                  |