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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is General Goodness just a moral principle?
Message-ID: <2134@pucc-h>
Date: Fri, 19-Jul-85 19:34:23 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.2134
Posted: Fri Jul 19 19:34:23 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 22-Jul-85 05:04:24 EDT
References: <852@umcp-cs.UUCP> <360@utastro.UUCP> <879@umcp-cs.UUCP>, <1235@pyuxd.UUCP>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Lines: 72
(Rich Rosen's article rearranged slightly)
>>>>It should be clear that there still are moral principles here, but (as best
>>>>I can ascertain) they derive out of some notion of human nature.
> How about the principle that you gain more for a longer period of time by
> cooperation with others than by "improving you position at the expense of
> others", incurring their wrath and prompting any person or group of persons
> to act against you (through violence, revenge, blockade, etc.) It is in
> your interest to cooperate with those around you.
I will look from a different perspective at the question wherewith I started
this discussion: If you are nothing but matter, how can there be a "you" in
whose interest cooperation is? Your model of human nature (100% biochemistry)
seems inconsistent with the fact that we are having this discussion at all --
or how do you think we happen to be alive, conscious, and intelligent? The
idea that these somehow came/come out of inanimate matter (which you implicitly
ASS-U-ME) is infinitely more implausible -- indeed, preposterous -- than the
idea that they were put there by a Designer. Of course this isn't net.origins;
but it does seem that your morality is at variance with your assumptions.
> Some people (apparently) won't accept what's logically clearly in their own
> best interests (like mutual cooperation) unless a parent/authority figure
> tells them they have to. That's why they invent gods.
As I've implied before, some people have, as a result of their past hurts, an
idea of what seems to be in their own best interests which may be at variance
with what is actually in their best interests. What they need is not just
logic, but healing. Or, sometimes they may know what is in their best
interests -- what they really want to do -- but these same hurts make them
too fearful to do it, too fearful that the hurts will be repeated. The Bible
was written, among other things, to give us guidelines as to what is actually
in our best interests, though we may not have discovered it yet. God Himself
is constantly at work healing us so that we lose our false wants and find out
what we really want, then have the courage to go for it. But until this
healing is completed (or at least well along), those guidelines are there so
that we don't mess ourselves up worse than we already are.
Example: This group had a discussion a while back on fornication. Many
fundamentalists look upon this as one of the star sins, i.e. something which
renders those who commit it liable to judgment and ostracism. But in actual
fact, the reason not to do it is that it is a suboptimal satisfaction of a
want -- the want for total (not just physical) intimacy with a MOTOS, which
can't be achieved very well outside of marriage. Paul puts it even more
strongly when he comments that someone who does indulge "sins against his
own body" -- i.e. hurts himself.
This is why there exists the Bible and the Church (not any organized church,
but the whole body of believers) -- to help people find out what is in their
own best interests and then be enabled to do that; to help thirsty people
obtain a drink of "living water" -- and indeed, to pour this love and joy
onto those around, like a river. Both Jesus and Paul talked a fair amount
about joy; Jesus specifically told His disciples (John 16:23,24 NIV), "...my
Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.... Ask and you will
receive, AND YOUR JOY WILL BE COMPLETE." (my emphasis)
In other words, Rich, you and I are both striving toward the same goal --
becoming the fullest and best persons we can be. No matter how many preach
the Law, that's not what Christ and Christianity are about (as Paul wrote
rather strongly in Galatians). A lot of the pain that I dumped on the net
last winter was from the fact that my mind knew many of the good things I have
been saying in this article, but I could not manage to get them internalized.
Now, I'm starting to internalize them and experience their reality in my life.
It is my contention that starting from the basis that one is loved and accepted
is a far more effective means of becoming free to reach one's fullest potential
than merely sticking to dry rationalism.
--
-- Jeff Sargent
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h!aeq
If you don't bet your life on at least one wild-looking chance before you die,
then you won't have really lived....