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From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA
Newsgroups: net.politics.theory
Subject: Re: What is socialism?
Message-ID: <711@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA>
Date: Fri, 8-Feb-85 18:29:48 EST
Article-I.D.: ucbtopaz.711
Posted: Fri Feb  8 18:29:48 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 10-Feb-85 05:35:09 EST
References: <325@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP>
Reply-To: mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob)
Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica
Lines: 35
Summary: 

In article <325@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> carnes@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Richard Carnes) writes:
>[IQ test for readers of net.politics:  Prove that your IQ is at least 45 by
>posting followups to this article to net.politics.theory, where discussions
>on the nature of socialism belong.]

[Second IQ test: when posting articles to net.politics & net.politics.theory
that you want followed-up in net.politics.theory, edit the header so that the
"Followup-To:" field says "net.politics.theory." :-]

>[Attack on libertarians, with comments that this is from the writings of
>[Henry Pachter, deleted.]
>"Socialism strives to abolish exploitation and inequality.  It seeks a
>society where merit and character are the only marks of distinction; where
>economic resources are controlled by public agencies, themselves under
>public scrutiny; where production is geared to the human needs of all and
>the product is distributed equitably; a society, finally, where man is no
>longer utilized as a means for purposes alien to him.

Sounds good. Also, there is nothing in this statement that is directly
contradictory to libertarianism (at least the leftist version I peddle,
which has been called "communitarianism"). Pachter leaves control of the
most important property (your body) where it belongs, and doesn't say
*anything* about the second important property ("the fruits of your
labor"). All other "rights" (property and otherwise) are details, and we
can work them out later :-).

It still leaves my question on socialism unanswered: How do I recognize a
socialist state from outside? The answers I get from socialist sound like
the answers I get from christians when I ask "How can I tell if someone is
a true christian?". The answers I get from non-socialists make socialists
mad. Pachter provides an answer in the first class, dealing with the
"goals" of the society. Actual goals aren't visible from the outside; you
can only see stated goals. Care to try and provide an answer, Richard?