Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83 v7 ucbtopaz-1.8; site ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxr!mhuxb!mhuxn!mhuxm!mhuxj!houxm!whuxlm!harpo!decvax!ucbvax!ucbtopaz!mwm From: mwm@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: What is socialism? Message-ID: <711@ucbtopaz.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> Date: Fri, 8-Feb-85 18:29:48 EST Article-I.D.: ucbtopaz.711 Posted: Fri Feb 8 18:29:48 1985 Date-Received: Sun, 10-Feb-85 05:35:09 EST References: <325@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> Reply-To: mwm@ucbtopaz.UUCP (Praiser of Bob) Organization: Missionaria Phonibalonica Lines: 35 Summary: In article <325@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP> carnes@gargoyle.UChicago.UUCP (Richard Carnes) writes: >[IQ test for readers of net.politics: Prove that your IQ is at least 45 by >posting followups to this article to net.politics.theory, where discussions >on the nature of socialism belong.] [Second IQ test: when posting articles to net.politics & net.politics.theory that you want followed-up in net.politics.theory, edit the header so that the "Followup-To:" field says "net.politics.theory." :-] >[Attack on libertarians, with comments that this is from the writings of >[Henry Pachter, deleted.] >"Socialism strives to abolish exploitation and inequality. It seeks a >society where merit and character are the only marks of distinction; where >economic resources are controlled by public agencies, themselves under >public scrutiny; where production is geared to the human needs of all and >the product is distributed equitably; a society, finally, where man is no >longer utilized as a means for purposes alien to him. Sounds good. Also, there is nothing in this statement that is directly contradictory to libertarianism (at least the leftist version I peddle, which has been called "communitarianism"). Pachter leaves control of the most important property (your body) where it belongs, and doesn't say *anything* about the second important property ("the fruits of your labor"). All other "rights" (property and otherwise) are details, and we can work them out later :-). It still leaves my question on socialism unanswered: How do I recognize a socialist state from outside? The answers I get from socialist sound like the answers I get from christians when I ask "How can I tell if someone is a true christian?". The answers I get from non-socialists make socialists mad. Pachter provides an answer in the first class, dealing with the "goals" of the society. Actual goals aren't visible from the outside; you can only see stated goals. Care to try and provide an answer, Richard?