Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site hcrvx1.UUCP Path: utzoo!hcrvax!hcrvx1!tracy From: tracy@hcrvx1.UUCP (Tracy Tims) Newsgroups: net.abortion Subject: Animals and people, which feels what. Message-ID: <1115@hcrvx1.UUCP> Date: Wed, 13-Feb-85 01:40:50 EST Article-I.D.: hcrvx1.1115 Posted: Wed Feb 13 01:40:50 1985 Date-Received: Wed, 13-Feb-85 04:06:26 EST Organization: Human Computing Resources Corp Lines: 42 I don't like causing pain. I don't like causing pain because I understand what it feels like, and I would not wish that on anyone, operating on the assumption that if we all don't wish it on anyone, there will be less pain. There is a certain set of reactions that animals (us included) feel as pain. I don't mind killing animals, as long as they are not in pain (or very much pain at all). I figure that an animal's consciousness is pretty much limited to spatial models, with temporal models being instinctual (not explicitly felt by the animal). Thus, they don't have much of a concept of their own death, or their own existence, other than that given them by the instinct to survive. So killing them, as long as they are not in pain, is not something they would object to. They don't understand it well. (They don't feel it.) Humans, on the other hand, are much better at perceiving time, and building models involving time. A human's understanding of pain also involves time. We can understand and fear our own death: much of our activity is not based in the here and now, in the immediate; but is based in the future, in the culmination of plans and ideas. A human's perception of pain is much richer and intangible because of this. (This comparison between animals and humans is a relative matter, of course.) I dislike the idea of killing humans because I can also understand a human notion of pain. I share the ability and desire to model using time, and to invest a significant portion of my life to the conscious anticipation of future events. I count on my continued existence for happiness in the here and now. I directly understand that other people feel the same way. I respect that. Animals don't feel that way. From what I can tell about pre-babies, they don't see time as a "human" would. They have no notions about it other than the here and now. All I know is that some time after birth, they develop a sense of time, and an understanding of their future. Birth is the latest point where we can recognize that that sense is lacking. So, I have no trouble with allowing abortions of pre-babies. Especially because I think it is more important for women to have control over their own bodies than it is for us to not kill something that may be a human being one day. (I am not female.) Tracy Tims ihnp4!utzoo!hcr!hcrvx1!tracy Human Computing Resources Corporation utcsri!hcr!hcrvx1!tracy Toronto, Ontario, Canada. 416 922-1937 dciem!hcr!hcrvx1!tracy