Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site topaz.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!cbosgd!cbdkc1!desoto!packard!topaz!josh From: josh@topaz.ARPA (J Storrs Hall) Newsgroups: net.politics.theory Subject: Re: Re: freedom, democracy, etc:Reply to cliff Message-ID: <627@topaz.ARPA> Date: Wed, 13-Feb-85 16:45:47 EST Article-I.D.: topaz.627 Posted: Wed Feb 13 16:45:47 1985 Date-Received: Thu, 14-Feb-85 03:09:10 EST References: <24bb6d52.264c@apollo.uucp> Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 32 >> Actually, moving to another country will generally cost you more than >> the taxes we were discussing in the first place. This is like >> saying you can easily prevent the government's cutting off your >> fingers by cutting off your arm ahead of time. > >I thought we were discussing the use of the word "coercive". Saying you're >not free because it will cost you to exercise your freedom sounds like a >Carnesian position (with which I sympathize though I would not expect a >libertarian to). > Terry Dineen Well, we sure have run the gamut of definitions of "coercive". R. Carnes believes it *is* coercion to offer someone a good or service that he desperately needs; T. Dineen believes that the implacable seizure of your goods by the most powerful armed organization on the face of the earth is *not* coercion because if you move halfway around the world, they won't do it again next year. Why don't you guys grant the libertarian's *technical* meaning of coercion *purely for the sake of the argument* so we can spend less time quibbling about definitions? If you want to say, "taking advantage of someone's misfortune", say "taking advantage"; if you want to indicate that a fate that someone has planned for you can be avoided by a desperate effort that will irrevocably change your life, say "avoidable calamity". The technical meaning of coercion is clear: Someone is coercing you when he makes you do something, or does something to you or your property, that you did not want to do or have done, by force, threat of force, or deception. If you are using the word with some other definition in mind, please say so when you use it. --JoSH