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From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler)
Newsgroups: net.kids
Subject: Re: Rights and Rosen: Rebuttal to T. C. Wheeler
Message-ID: <967@pyuxa.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 21-Aug-84 10:35:13 EDT
Article-I.D.: pyuxa.967
Posted: Tue Aug 21 10:35:13 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 22-Aug-84 02:06:26 EDT
References: <962@pyuxa.UUCP>, <2960@alice.UUCP>
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J.
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As I said before, have some kids, do as you like with them, then
report back after 15 years with the results of your experiment.
My experience, and that of most of those I know, is that you will
probably create a monster by using the hands-off approach.  But,
the biggest gripe I have with this discussion is that there are
netters who do not have any children who are telling those who do
how to raise their kids.  They are treading on very thin ice when
they presume to intrude into the affairs of the family unit.  It
is none of their damn business as long as there is no physical
abuse involved.  As far as mental abuse goes, I happen to think that
leaving a child to decide for themself what to do is a far worse
form of abuse than providing guidance from the family.

I have three children of whom I am extremly proud.  My oldest (14)
has for the past two years gone out and found jobs in the neighborhood
on his own and has earned nearly $1000.  He washed cars, weeded
gardens, mowed lawns, cleaned out garages, put Sunday papers together,
and shined shoes at the railroad station.  All of these jobs he
got himself because of his reliability and personality.  He gets up
sometimes at 4:30 in the morning to do these jobs.  The thing that
makes me proud is that I get phone calls from people I don't even
know telling me about something he did for them.  My 13 year old
daughter is the same kind of person.  She has her jobs and is
busy with them at least 5 days a week.  Her reliable reputation
has spread all over town and it is such that she has to turn
down jobs now.  The youngest (7) is at the point that he is
starting to emulate his siblings.  

Why do I tell you about my kids and their work?  It is just to show
you that, not having used the hands-off approach, the kids are
doing just fine, thank you.  I don't have to bribe them to do
things.  I don't have to sit down and have a meaningfull conversation
every time I want someone to carry out the garbage.  I have never
discussed religion with them, mainly because I have no opinions
on the subject, but, all three go to church every weekend, on their
own hook.  The two older ones watch the news and read the paper
every day and form most of their own opinions.  They do these things
because I told them to.  They continue to do these things because
they know now that they will get a better understanding of what
is going on around them.  I encourage them to read and observe.
I tell them when they are wrong in my opinion.  I mould their
characters into what I feel is something that will serve them
in the future.  With the phone calls and remarks being made by
other people, it is working quite nicely.  

There are those parents in our neighborhood who have used the hands-
off approach.  Their kids are, in my opinion, in trouble.  They have
no direction, are unable to form the simplest conclusion, have no
concept of ethics, do not understand how to make a decision, and
cannot accept any form of rejection.  Their parents did not give them
any early help at any of these skills.  A parent has to have the
ability to say NO.  Disipline is not a dirty word.  My kids received
a healthy dose of disipline plus an occasional seat warming.  They
also received a healthier dose of love with nightly (to this day)
hugs and kisses.  They get a lot of respect for their accomplishments
and they get dissaproval for their non-accomplishments.  They are
able to form logical conclusions and understand the consequences
of their actions.  I have always insisted that they be morally and
ethically superior.  Whether they get this through some religious
teachings or through the home, I don't care.  Just so it happens.

Some of you say that I am wrong to try to mould my childrens
character.  Well, to you I say, It's none of your damn business.  I
have done quite well so far and I see no problems from here on
out.  I will continue to mould and shape as long as I have breath.
My kids are well known and respected in our community, even at
their tender ages.  I am very very proud of them, and it has been
the result of character moulding.  I am one of those parents who
can't wait to get home in the evening to be with my family and
to share their daily adventures, trials, and tribulations.  Some
of the hands-off parents would seem to be just as happy if they
never saw their kids except on special occasions.  My kids have
to earn respect.  The hands-off parents seem to have it backwards
and expect respect, even if they have to buy it with goodies
and money.

SO, for all of those who are so sure they have the ultimate answer
to child rearing, but don't have any children, buzz off.  Being
a parent is not a textbook job.  If you don't think you are
moulding character with your theory of child rearing, then
your nuts.  Character is moulded, it does not spring full blown
out of nothing.  From what I read, those who are espousing the
hands-off approach, would have all children be the same, in
the image of the espouser.  Well, maybe I don't want my children to
be like you.  Maybe I want my children to be like me, or Albert
Schwitzer, or Grace Slick, or Princess Dianne, or Dr. Salk, what
the hell business is it of yours?  I am doing my damndest to make
certain that my kids have all of the facalties they need to
make their way once they cut the apron strings.  Leaving the
gathering of those abilities to function up to them alone is
criminal and will surely backfire.

Go ahead and play at child rearing.  I can guarentee that you will
find it a hell of a lot different than a bunch of claptrap
theories.  I am sure these so-called child rearing methods have
worked for some folks, but I feel that those kids were just
smarter than the parents and would have survived without them.

Flames accepted as long as you stick to the subject and don't start
character assasinations because you don't agree.  Let's keep
Hitler, red-necked conservatives, and right-winged idiot epitaths
out of this discussion.  They have nothing to do with it.  Let's
just stick to the subject or let it die right here and now.  I
for one am getting tired of non-parents telling parents how to
raise their children.  Try parenting, I'll bet you change your
attitude.
T. C. Wheeler