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From: martin@ism780.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.philosophy
Subject: Re: Time and Free Will
Message-ID: <350@ism780.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 8-Aug-84 00:08:48 EDT
Article-I.D.: ism780.350
Posted: Wed Aug  8 00:08:48 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 4-Aug-84 01:32:56 EDT
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Nf-ID: #R:ism780:20200016:ism780:20200019:000:2368
Nf-From: ism780!martin    Jul 31 09:12:00 1984

>***** ism780:net.philosophy / proper!gam / 10:45 am  Jul 30, 1984
>> From: martin@ism780.UUCP (martin smith  INTERACTIVE Systems)
>>
>> I think the principle of cause and effect is nothing more than identity.  That
>> is, if A causes B, then A and B are the same.

>Could you please explain how this works?

No.  When you ask how something works, you are asking for the cause of an
effect.  Since even our language assumes Cause and Effect, I cannot use
this language to explain a concept that says there is no Cause and Effect.

>>                                   ...  Without the principle of cause
>> and effect there is no determinism.

>Absolutely!  Cause and effect is the underlying assumption of the
>philosophy of science, and hence the scientific method.

While philosophy and science at first seem to be limitless, they are
restricted by their base.  Perhaps we have hit this limit when we try to
describe a black hole or a mind.  If Cause and Effect is the underlying
assumption of the scientific method, then it is also the underlying limit
of our understanding of things.

>>                                  ... In the picture below, I am standing on
>> the X, forever in the present being bombarded with possible futures. I choose
>> which future will become my past.
>>
>>        Past                                         Present      Futures
>>
>>                                                       <------------
>>       <--------------------------------------------X  <------------
>>                                                       <------------
>>
>> "And that's where free will comes from, Charlie Brown."  Having so said, Linus
>> threw his blanky over his shoulder, planted his thumb firmly in his mouth, and
>> prepared to withstand the hurricane he knew was coming.

>Whoosh!  You have snuck in this concept of `future' and then boldly
>claimed that you "choose which future will become my past."  How
>have you shown that this choice (if there is in fact a choice) is
>not the result of deterministic forces?
-- 

I haven't shown it.  But I think I have shown that I can't show it when
our system of showing things assumes that I can't show it.  That would be
like discussing the existance of God with Jerry Falwell.  But don't worry,
I'm gonna think s'more (because I freely choose to).

	 martin smith, INTERACTIVE Systems