Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site pyuxa.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!gamma!pyuxww!pyuxa!wetcw From: wetcw@pyuxa.UUCP (T C Wheeler) Newsgroups: net.kids Subject: Re: Rights and Rosen: Rebuttal to T. C. Wheeler Message-ID: <967@pyuxa.UUCP> Date: Tue, 21-Aug-84 10:35:13 EDT Article-I.D.: pyuxa.967 Posted: Tue Aug 21 10:35:13 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 22-Aug-84 02:06:26 EDT References: <962@pyuxa.UUCP>, <2960@alice.UUCP> Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J. Lines: 108 As I said before, have some kids, do as you like with them, then report back after 15 years with the results of your experiment. My experience, and that of most of those I know, is that you will probably create a monster by using the hands-off approach. But, the biggest gripe I have with this discussion is that there are netters who do not have any children who are telling those who do how to raise their kids. They are treading on very thin ice when they presume to intrude into the affairs of the family unit. It is none of their damn business as long as there is no physical abuse involved. As far as mental abuse goes, I happen to think that leaving a child to decide for themself what to do is a far worse form of abuse than providing guidance from the family. I have three children of whom I am extremly proud. My oldest (14) has for the past two years gone out and found jobs in the neighborhood on his own and has earned nearly $1000. He washed cars, weeded gardens, mowed lawns, cleaned out garages, put Sunday papers together, and shined shoes at the railroad station. All of these jobs he got himself because of his reliability and personality. He gets up sometimes at 4:30 in the morning to do these jobs. The thing that makes me proud is that I get phone calls from people I don't even know telling me about something he did for them. My 13 year old daughter is the same kind of person. She has her jobs and is busy with them at least 5 days a week. Her reliable reputation has spread all over town and it is such that she has to turn down jobs now. The youngest (7) is at the point that he is starting to emulate his siblings. Why do I tell you about my kids and their work? It is just to show you that, not having used the hands-off approach, the kids are doing just fine, thank you. I don't have to bribe them to do things. I don't have to sit down and have a meaningfull conversation every time I want someone to carry out the garbage. I have never discussed religion with them, mainly because I have no opinions on the subject, but, all three go to church every weekend, on their own hook. The two older ones watch the news and read the paper every day and form most of their own opinions. They do these things because I told them to. They continue to do these things because they know now that they will get a better understanding of what is going on around them. I encourage them to read and observe. I tell them when they are wrong in my opinion. I mould their characters into what I feel is something that will serve them in the future. With the phone calls and remarks being made by other people, it is working quite nicely. There are those parents in our neighborhood who have used the hands- off approach. Their kids are, in my opinion, in trouble. They have no direction, are unable to form the simplest conclusion, have no concept of ethics, do not understand how to make a decision, and cannot accept any form of rejection. Their parents did not give them any early help at any of these skills. A parent has to have the ability to say NO. Disipline is not a dirty word. My kids received a healthy dose of disipline plus an occasional seat warming. They also received a healthier dose of love with nightly (to this day) hugs and kisses. They get a lot of respect for their accomplishments and they get dissaproval for their non-accomplishments. They are able to form logical conclusions and understand the consequences of their actions. I have always insisted that they be morally and ethically superior. Whether they get this through some religious teachings or through the home, I don't care. Just so it happens. Some of you say that I am wrong to try to mould my childrens character. Well, to you I say, It's none of your damn business. I have done quite well so far and I see no problems from here on out. I will continue to mould and shape as long as I have breath. My kids are well known and respected in our community, even at their tender ages. I am very very proud of them, and it has been the result of character moulding. I am one of those parents who can't wait to get home in the evening to be with my family and to share their daily adventures, trials, and tribulations. Some of the hands-off parents would seem to be just as happy if they never saw their kids except on special occasions. My kids have to earn respect. The hands-off parents seem to have it backwards and expect respect, even if they have to buy it with goodies and money. SO, for all of those who are so sure they have the ultimate answer to child rearing, but don't have any children, buzz off. Being a parent is not a textbook job. If you don't think you are moulding character with your theory of child rearing, then your nuts. Character is moulded, it does not spring full blown out of nothing. From what I read, those who are espousing the hands-off approach, would have all children be the same, in the image of the espouser. Well, maybe I don't want my children to be like you. Maybe I want my children to be like me, or Albert Schwitzer, or Grace Slick, or Princess Dianne, or Dr. Salk, what the hell business is it of yours? I am doing my damndest to make certain that my kids have all of the facalties they need to make their way once they cut the apron strings. Leaving the gathering of those abilities to function up to them alone is criminal and will surely backfire. Go ahead and play at child rearing. I can guarentee that you will find it a hell of a lot different than a bunch of claptrap theories. I am sure these so-called child rearing methods have worked for some folks, but I feel that those kids were just smarter than the parents and would have survived without them. Flames accepted as long as you stick to the subject and don't start character assasinations because you don't agree. Let's keep Hitler, red-necked conservatives, and right-winged idiot epitaths out of this discussion. They have nothing to do with it. Let's just stick to the subject or let it die right here and now. I for one am getting tired of non-parents telling parents how to raise their children. Try parenting, I'll bet you change your attitude. T. C. Wheeler