Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site crystal.ARPA
Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!uwvax!crystal!pal
From: pal@crystal.ARPA
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Re: Brian Atkin's article re bias
Message-ID: <353@crystal.ARPA>
Date: Mon, 6-Aug-84 18:07:20 EDT
Article-I.D.: crystal.353
Posted: Mon Aug  6 18:07:20 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 8-Aug-84 00:42:45 EDT
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept
Lines: 121

w.r.t Brian Atkins' (opus!atkins) comments on sportscasting (670@opus):
(> lines denote quotes from Mr. Atkins' article)

> W.r.t your flame on Kirt Thomas' remark on soviet judges,
> look at the major upsets on Olympic history in which an
> eastern block athlete was the winner. Then look at the
> major examples of bad judging by an eastern judge in the
> same time span (judging that was obviously bad, from more
> than one nation's viewpoint). Behold! There are an incredible
> amount of coincidences, arn't there. 

No there arn't (sic) (At least not in this paragraph, or elsewhere in the
article, for that matter)
Behold what?  Cite some concrete examples, please.
Or will you accept that the upset of Ecaterina Szabo in the Women's gymnastics
was purely due to the presence of a US judge ?

> 
> The same cannot be said of the Soviets. Take 1976 Basketball. 
> A dubious call for extra time on the clock (by an
> eastern judge, if I'm not mistaken) lead to a Soviet victory. 
> Other examples abound.

An Eastern judge?  Why would a New Yorker favour the Soviet Union?
Or do you mean further east?  Everyone east of Britain is part of a conspiracy
to help the Soviets beat the USA, right?  Must be because the {Poles,
Czechs,Afghans,Yugoslavs,Chinese...} love the Soviet Union so much.
As for the examples that "abound", I presume we are to take your word for it.

> I haven't seen any examples of an American (or British, or Israeli, or French,
> or Chinese!, or Japanese, or....) athlete winning an upset
> victory due to a bad call from one of the American judges
> (or British, etc.).
> 
> W.r.t. the Men's Gymnastics, nobody has complained about bad
> officiating, not the Chinese or the Japanese (at least I
> haven't heard anything, and I watched both the men's compulsories 
> and optionals). If I'm not mistaken, we also broke

The New York Times, Monday Aug 6., p.32:
"The Chinese ..., yet complained that they had been underscored on the parallel
bars by Japanese and American judges."

Didn't the US men's team win the gold?  And weren't the Chinese (reigning world
champions) expected to win (Again, the NYTimes)
You weren't watching ABC, were you?  And you didn't hear about the Chinese
complaints?  I wonder why.  Could ABC be biased? Naaah (What, biased? An
AMERICAN network?!?).  I suspect that ABC are not the only ones who are biased,
after all "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest" :- Simon
and Garfunkel.

> I think if you look well at the examples of bad judging on
> the part of Rumania in the woman's Gymnastics, you will find
> the Rumanian judge consistently beneath the other judges for
> the competition, and consistently above for the Rumanian
> team. This is perhaps normal, but not to the extent
> displayed here! (I did not watch the woman's competition,
> but my wife did. She said there were examples of such
> behavior on the part of the Rumania (she was a very good gymnast in high). 

Difficult to make sense of this (The Rumania?)
The examples of bad judging on the part of Rumania?  Perhaps you mean the
Rumanian judges?  Anyway, which examples?
I did watch the women's competition.  ABC never gave scores broken down
by judges, only an overall score.  It was my impression that the scores WERE
NOT published for the individual judges, but only the overall scores were
reported.  Difficult, under those circumstances, to verify the extent to which
the "Rumania" scores were at variance with the other scores.
But *of course* they're cheating.  They're furriners, aren't they?
Never let the facts get in the way of a pre-conception, eh?

> I have heard similar reports from
> ABC people and the American woman's coach (a Rumanian
> defecter, poor sources but perhaps another possible motivation 
> for the Rumanian scores). I in no way attempt to depict
> America as being lily white in our international activities,
> including sports (which, as I reread this note, I seem to
> be).
> 

"ABC people" wouldn't happen to include Kathy Rigby McCoy, would it?
She was the one I found most offensive, making accusations about the judges
with very little substance that I could see.  She also couldn't understand why
the US women got low scores in the team competition parallel bars
routine. Perhaps she didn't notice that most of them nearly fell off the bar
(at least one actually did)
At least you are willing to admit that your sources are poor.

> If an American Olympic audience wants to
> cheer a very proud and elated American Gold medal team or
> individual, is that bad sportsmanship? Whip out your video
> tape of the medal presentation for Men's Gymnastics team
> competition, and look at the applause the American audience
> gave to the Chinese and Japanese, it was appreciative,
> large, and sincer!

Sure, as long as the US won, the audience was sporting.  Now YOU whip out your
videotape of the Women's individual competition (Sunday) and listen to the
booing (also some applause, granted) for Ecaterina Szabo when she won a gold
over a US gymnast.

> I agree, the hand shaking done by the
> Japanese was an excellent example of TRUE sportsmanship, and
> the Audience as well and the Chinese and American team new
> it! Incidently, what they did was a breach of Olympic protocol 
> (in my opinion good breach, bad protocol).
> 
I have no quarrel with the athletes.  Peter Vidmar's comments in the NYTimes
attest to his sportsmanship.  ABC, Kathy McCoy, and the other announcers are
another kettle of fish altogether.

My new favourite example of ABC's "unbiased" coverage:
We now take you to a previously taped judo match, where American  won a
bronze medal.  Five minutes of grunting and groaning, American throws opponent
to floor.  No mention whatsoever of who won gold and silver.  Guess which
nationality they weren't (Answer should be obvious, so no prizes will be
awarded)

Anil Pal
crystal!pal
U. of Wisconsin- Madison