Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mit-athena.ARPA Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!mit-athena!martillo From: martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Who is a Jew Message-ID: <255@mit-athena.ARPA> Date: Sun, 19-Aug-84 04:28:42 EDT Article-I.D.: mit-athe.255 Posted: Sun Aug 19 04:28:42 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 22-Aug-84 03:16:53 EDT References: <1438@ittvax.UUCP>, <223@fisher.UUCP> <225@mit-athena.ARPA>, <253@fisher.UUCP> Organization: MIT, Project Athena, Cambridge, Ma. Lines: 65 >Mr. Martillo is by far the most arrogant individual I have yet run >into on this net. He has stated that my disagreement with his views >DISQUALIFIES me from any input on Jewishness. When all those who are >deserving of such disqualification are eliminated, only those who >agree with Martillo will be left. (By the way, all of you who feel I >ought to be disqualified need not read this) I do not mind disagreement with my opinions and I do now and then concede the correctness of other people's opinions. You may write to Sophie Quigley or Larry Welsh for confirmation. Your disagreement with my views does not disqualify your opinions on how the Jewish community should define Jewishness but rather your denial of the existence of the Jewish community which I can affirm does exist. Apparently in your limited experience you have never had contact with the functioning Jewish community -- probably because most Ashkenazim are no longer part of the Jewish community. The denial of the existence of a Jewish community which is so easy to find in New York, Boston, Nashville and many other cities is an interesting example of fossilized Ashkenazi thought patterns. Assimilated German Jews from the end of the 19th century until the Hitler years also tended to deny the Jewish community and the commonality of Jewish experience. Even admitting the obvious differences between the Ostjuden (Eastern European Jews) and the German Jews, I see no other community than the Jewish community in which to place the German Jews. Certainly they were not part of the German community. German Jewish voting patterns were quite different than German voting patterns. German Jewish intellectuality followed many different paths than German intellectuality. I will concede a very low opinion of Hermann Kohn, Martin Buber, Franz Rosenzweig, Gershom Scholem and their whole crowd but having read them I doubt they could have taken part in the slaughter of a people as easy as most of their counterpart German intellectuals. To me this implies an extremely different world outlook. Later events in fact showed that the German Jews were part of the Jewish community and not part of the German community. I have yet to label individuals on the net idiotic, arrogant or moronic although certainly all these types exist on the net. I have labeled opinions moronic or ignorant. From the standpoint of Judaism limudei torat moshe (studies of the teaching of Moses) are not acts of piety, they are fundamental obligations of all Jews and I have little patience with those Jews on the net who show greater familiarity with intellectual second raters like Thoreau, Emerson, Mills, Jefferson than with intellectual first raters like Maimonides, Nahmanides, Isaac al-Fasi, Abarbanel, Judah ben Betsalel Loewe (Maharal miPrag), the Vilna Gaon -- especially when these Jews show simultaneously no inclination to correct this gross intellectual imbalance. >Martillo, if the truth is so obvious to you, so writ in stone that no >discussion can be carried on in good spirit, why do you bother >participating in this group? It cannot be for your edification, as you >clearly know it all. It cannot be for our edification, since you respond >to contrary views with insults and rudeness. Labeling as insults and rudeness the opinions of those who disagree with you is a common net tactic. This tactic often covers up fundamental ignorance which I suspect is the case here since David Rubin has shown no familiarity with basic Jewish texts. >There must be people reading this who may hold Martillo's views on >nationality and religion who are capable of disagreeing with personal >opinions without resorting to personal insults. I'd like to hear them >elaborate their views, publicly or privately. Joaquim Martillo