Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Path: utzoo!henry
From: henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re:Governments don't create wealth, eh?
Message-ID: <4212@utzoo.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 13-Aug-84 18:27:56 EDT
Article-I.D.: utzoo.4212
Posted: Mon Aug 13 18:27:56 1984
Date-Received: Mon, 13-Aug-84 18:27:56 EDT
References: <2032@utcsstat.UUCP>, <1046@dciem.UUCP>
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Lines: 74

> Capitalism works because of the concentration of control in a place where
> decisions can be made.

No argument, although this also applies to every other form of government
(indeed, every form of organization in general).

> Money in the hands of many people, a little for each person, cannot get
> refineries or factories, or even houses built.  You have to concentrate
> the money for these things to happen.

Yes, but this is the job that banks do.  It is silly to assert, as some
have, that all those little bits of money don't do any good.  Nonsense;
most of them either (a) get spent, or (b) get put into a bank.  Banks
do an excellent job of concentrating money for investment, and they do
it without coercion.  Why bring the government in on it?

> There are many things that are good for the community, but not good
> for any one individual.  Basic research is such a thing.  Roads are
> another.  ...

I'm not sure about Ian, but I personally tend to agree that this sort
of thing is a reasonable role for government.  This does not mean that
all kinds of other things (oil companies, airlines, vacation resorts,
amusement parks, etc.) can be justified on similar grounds.

Furthermore, many of these things *can* be set up so that they are good
for specific individuals as well.  Not all, but many.  Bridges, for
example, are generally government-owned, but it is not clear that this
is really a good idea.  The poor state of repair of many major bridges
is becoming a major scandal in the US, but toll bridges are not among
the problem cases.  The reason is obvious:  toll bridges have revenue
available for maintenance, and specific people interested in making sure
that they get maintained.  I know, it's a pain paying toll, but it really
does seem to work better that way...

> It is silly to say that government use of money does not create wealth.

Again, I don't know about Ian, but I don't take quite such an absolute
position.  "Quite".  *Most* government use of money does not create
wealth, and that which does, often does it very inefficiently.

> ......................................It is equally silly to equate
> taxation with robbery.

Taxation is legalized theft.  Let us not mince words -- it is the
government taking money out of my pocket by force, without supplying a
specific service in return.  That's theft.  The only reason it's legal is
that it's done by the same organization that makes the laws.  This does
not mean I see a way to eliminate it [although I do think that "pay as
you go" would be a viable way to run a lot of services, and mandatory
(privately-supplied) insurance would suffice for others].  But then, I
don't see a way to eliminate burglaries, either; doesn't mean I think
they're right.

> Without it, you wouldn't have the "money"
> you claim is yours and not ours (including you).

"(including you)"!  What a farce.  Tax money, once extracted from the
citizens, does *not* belong to them any more.  It belongs to the
government, which is an independent entity.  Ownership of, and control
of, the government by the citizens is absolute in theory but utterly
nonexistent in practice.  The great strength of democracy, from the
viewpoint of the government, is that it keeps the peasants quiet by
giving them an illusion of participation and control.  Sorry, Martin,
but it looks like you've been taken in by this.

If you doubt me, consider this:  if I, as a citizen, am part owner of
(say) Ontario Place, can I sell my share if I leave the country for
good?  Of course not, because it never belonged to me in the first place.
It belongs to the government, which claims to speak for me but really
speaks only for itself.
-- 
				Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
				{allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry