Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!henry From: henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) Newsgroups: can.politics Subject: Re:Governments don't create wealth, eh? Message-ID: <4212@utzoo.UUCP> Date: Mon, 13-Aug-84 18:27:56 EDT Article-I.D.: utzoo.4212 Posted: Mon Aug 13 18:27:56 1984 Date-Received: Mon, 13-Aug-84 18:27:56 EDT References: <2032@utcsstat.UUCP>, <1046@dciem.UUCP> Organization: U of Toronto Zoology Lines: 74 > Capitalism works because of the concentration of control in a place where > decisions can be made. No argument, although this also applies to every other form of government (indeed, every form of organization in general). > Money in the hands of many people, a little for each person, cannot get > refineries or factories, or even houses built. You have to concentrate > the money for these things to happen. Yes, but this is the job that banks do. It is silly to assert, as some have, that all those little bits of money don't do any good. Nonsense; most of them either (a) get spent, or (b) get put into a bank. Banks do an excellent job of concentrating money for investment, and they do it without coercion. Why bring the government in on it? > There are many things that are good for the community, but not good > for any one individual. Basic research is such a thing. Roads are > another. ... I'm not sure about Ian, but I personally tend to agree that this sort of thing is a reasonable role for government. This does not mean that all kinds of other things (oil companies, airlines, vacation resorts, amusement parks, etc.) can be justified on similar grounds. Furthermore, many of these things *can* be set up so that they are good for specific individuals as well. Not all, but many. Bridges, for example, are generally government-owned, but it is not clear that this is really a good idea. The poor state of repair of many major bridges is becoming a major scandal in the US, but toll bridges are not among the problem cases. The reason is obvious: toll bridges have revenue available for maintenance, and specific people interested in making sure that they get maintained. I know, it's a pain paying toll, but it really does seem to work better that way... > It is silly to say that government use of money does not create wealth. Again, I don't know about Ian, but I don't take quite such an absolute position. "Quite". *Most* government use of money does not create wealth, and that which does, often does it very inefficiently. > ......................................It is equally silly to equate > taxation with robbery. Taxation is legalized theft. Let us not mince words -- it is the government taking money out of my pocket by force, without supplying a specific service in return. That's theft. The only reason it's legal is that it's done by the same organization that makes the laws. This does not mean I see a way to eliminate it [although I do think that "pay as you go" would be a viable way to run a lot of services, and mandatory (privately-supplied) insurance would suffice for others]. But then, I don't see a way to eliminate burglaries, either; doesn't mean I think they're right. > Without it, you wouldn't have the "money" > you claim is yours and not ours (including you). "(including you)"! What a farce. Tax money, once extracted from the citizens, does *not* belong to them any more. It belongs to the government, which is an independent entity. Ownership of, and control of, the government by the citizens is absolute in theory but utterly nonexistent in practice. The great strength of democracy, from the viewpoint of the government, is that it keeps the peasants quiet by giving them an illusion of participation and control. Sorry, Martin, but it looks like you've been taken in by this. If you doubt me, consider this: if I, as a citizen, am part owner of (say) Ontario Place, can I sell my share if I leave the country for good? Of course not, because it never belonged to me in the first place. It belongs to the government, which claims to speak for me but really speaks only for itself. -- Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology {allegra,ihnp4,linus,decvax}!utzoo!henry