Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mit-athena.ARPA
Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!mit-athena!martillo
From: martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Who is a Jew
Message-ID: <255@mit-athena.ARPA>
Date: Sun, 19-Aug-84 04:28:42 EDT
Article-I.D.: mit-athe.255
Posted: Sun Aug 19 04:28:42 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 22-Aug-84 03:16:53 EDT
References: <1438@ittvax.UUCP>, <223@fisher.UUCP> <225@mit-athena.ARPA>, <253@fisher.UUCP>
Organization: MIT, Project Athena, Cambridge, Ma.
Lines: 65

>Mr. Martillo is by far the most arrogant individual I have yet run
>into on this net. He has stated that my disagreement with his views
>DISQUALIFIES me from any input on Jewishness. When all those who are
>deserving of such disqualification are eliminated, only those who 
>agree with Martillo will be left. (By the way, all of you who feel I
>ought to be disqualified need not read this)

I do not mind disagreement with my  opinions  and  I  do  now  and  then
concede  the  correctness  of other people's opinions.  You may write to
Sophie Quigley or Larry Welsh for confirmation.  Your disagreement  with
my  views  does not disqualify your opinions on how the Jewish community
should define Jewishness but rather your denial of the existence of  the
Jewish  community  which  I  can  affirm does exist.  Apparently in your
limited experience you have  never  had  contact  with  the  functioning
Jewish  community -- probably because most Ashkenazim are no longer part
of the Jewish community.

The denial of the existence of a Jewish community which is  so  easy  to
find  in  New  York,  Boston,  Nashville  and  many  other  cities is an
interesting  example   of   fossilized   Ashkenazi   thought   patterns.
Assimilated  German  Jews  from  the  end  of the 19th century until the
Hitler  years  also  tended  to  deny  the  Jewish  community  and   the
commonality   of   Jewish   experience.    Even  admitting  the  obvious
differences between the Ostjuden (Eastern European Jews) and the  German
Jews,  I  see  no  other community than the Jewish community in which to
place the German Jews.  Certainly they  were  not  part  of  the  German
community.   German  Jewish  voting  patterns  were quite different than
German voting patterns.  German  Jewish  intellectuality  followed  many
different  paths than German intellectuality.  I will concede a very low
opinion of Hermann Kohn, Martin Buber, Franz Rosenzweig, Gershom Scholem
and their whole crowd but having read them I doubt they could have taken
part in the slaughter of a people as easy as most of  their  counterpart
German  intellectuals.   To me this implies an extremely different world
outlook.  Later events in fact showed that the German Jews were part  of
the Jewish community and not part of the German community.

I  have yet to label individuals on the net idiotic, arrogant or moronic
although certainly all these types exist on the  net.   I  have  labeled
opinions  moronic  or  ignorant.  From the standpoint of Judaism limudei
torat moshe (studies of the teaching of Moses) are not  acts  of  piety,
they  are fundamental obligations of all Jews and I have little patience
with  those  Jews  on  the  net  who  show  greater   familiarity   with
intellectual  second raters like Thoreau, Emerson, Mills, Jefferson than
with  intellectual  first  raters  like  Maimonides,  Nahmanides,  Isaac
al-Fasi, Abarbanel, Judah ben Betsalel Loewe (Maharal miPrag), the Vilna
Gaon -- especially when these Jews show simultaneously no inclination to
correct this gross intellectual imbalance.
		
>Martillo, if the truth is so obvious to you, so writ in stone that no
>discussion can be carried on in good spirit, why do you bother 
>participating in this group? It cannot be for your edification, as you
>clearly know it all. It cannot be for our edification, since you respond 
>to contrary views with insults and rudeness.

Labeling as insults and rudeness the opinions of those who disagree with
you is a common net tactic.  This tactic  often  covers  up  fundamental
ignorance  which  I suspect is the case here since David Rubin has shown
no familiarity with basic Jewish texts.

>There must be people reading this who may hold Martillo's views on
>nationality and religion who are capable of disagreeing with personal
>opinions without resorting to personal insults. I'd like to hear them
>elaborate their views, publicly or privately. 

Joaquim Martillo