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From: ab3@pucc-h (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: Redbook
Message-ID: <920@pucc-h>
Date: Tue, 7-Aug-84 19:49:19 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.920
Posted: Tue Aug  7 19:49:19 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 9-Aug-84 02:46:44 EDT
References: <894@pucc-h> <184@uwmacc.UUCP>
Organization: Purdue, THE Indiana University
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	[This is a continuation the Dubois-Kulawiec-Sargent roundtable,
	so if you're already bored, hit "n" now, and escape...]

> From Paul Dubois
>
> Tsk tsk, Rsk:
>
> You can swear all you want at Jeff, and so advertise to the rest
> of us by your filthy language the lack of care you take in
> crafting your postings to the net, but...

	I take plenty of care, thank you; and I said exactly what I meant
	to say.  You may not like my language.  If not, I suggest you skip
	articles that I post, as I feel no compunction to limit my vocabulary
	to words that you, or anyone else, feel acceptable.  I'm sure you've
	heard it all before; if not, it's about time you did.

	In any event, I was (and still am) very insulted by what Jeff had
	to say; I felt my reaction was *somewhat* restrained, considering
	that my first impulse was to stroll down the hall and vaporize Jeff.
	This, however, would not have been socially acceptable, and is also
	considered to contravene University staff regulations.

> You still have not said why I was wrong.
> 
> You have not demonstrated what it was about my posting that so
> aroused your ire.  I had concluded that Christian women enjoy
> sex.  You said, I believe, that the link between the results
> of the Redbook study and my conclusion was, um, well...you
> said something "inhospitable", shall we say.  I replied with
> a request for elucidation of the fallacy in my logic.  Jeff
> defended my conclusion.

	You, Paul, did not "arouse my ire".  I get far nastier when
	"ired"!  What I said was:

>	Well, Paul, goin' from

>>	[Redbook Survey]
>>
>>	Those women who rated themselves as "deeply religious" were
>>	the ones who enjoyed sex the most.

>	to

>>	Since the survey was conducted in this country, we may reasonably
>>	assume that the religious women were Christian religion women, no?
>>	Therefore, one might observe that the nonsense about the Christian
>>	ethic is that Christians are the ones with an unhealthy attitude
>>	about sex.

>	is one of the blatant pieces of total bullshit I've seen in a while.

	Now, as I pointed out to Jeff, I didn't say that either the premise
	or the conclusion were wrong; I said that the derivation of
	the stated conclusion from the stated premise was bullshit.

	Why did I say this (here comes your answer):

	1. This is a survey of Redbook readers; hardly a scientific 
	cross-section of any group...except, of course, Redbook readers who
	answer surveys.

	In other words, the extrapolation implied in the conclusion, to
	American Christian women, to Christians in general (note final
	statement) seems very farfetched to me.  For example: how many
	men read Redbook?

	2. What is a "healthy" or "unhealthy" attitude about sex?  Says who?
	I say that an unhealthy attitude is one which disallows sex outside
	of marriage; you may not agree; who is right?

	3. Suppose for a moment that we neglect points 1 and 2; what does
	the enjoyment of sex by religious women have to do with their
	(Christain) ethical attitude about sex?  In other words, someone
	who is deeply religious may enjoy lovemaking a great deal; what does
	that have to do with their ethical attitudes.

	4. Suppose we now neglect 1, 2, and 3; we still have the problem
	of matching "the Christian ethic" to the attitudes of the people
	out there who call themselves Christians.  In other words, a
	philosophical statement is not equivalent to the attitudes of a
	large number of people.

	Side note: As it happens, Paul, I *do* disagree with your conclusion;
	probably because I have my own ideas about Christianity (and for
	that matter, Judaism, and so on) and sex; but you've probably deduced
	that already, anyway.  Since our definitions of "healthy attitude"
	probably differ, it is unlikely we will agree on that...and I'm not
	trying to argue you out of your view.  I'm merely pointing out that
	the deductive process shown in your original article is faulty.  
-- 
---Rsk

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I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints,
The sinners are much more fun...and only the good die young!