Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ssc-vax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!david From: david@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Norris) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: More omni/freewill (and now, nova!) Message-ID: <849@ssc-vax.UUCP> Date: Wed, 22-Feb-84 12:43:26 EST Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.849 Posted: Wed Feb 22 12:43:26 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 24-Feb-84 00:08:11 EST Organization: Boeing Aerospace, Seattle Lines: 42 Byron Howes: > ... If the Deity is omniscient, then it knows what we > are going to do today, tomorrow, or for eternity. It doesn't *matter* > whether or not we are made to do it. To an all-knowing diety, the > outcome and all outcomes are *known.* The human notion of "free will" > is irrelevant in the face of that knowledge. Why? I am being serious. Why is the notion of free will irrelevant in the face of the knowledge that God already knows what choice you are going to make? Why does this destroy the concept of free will? ---------------------------------------- As a side note on the free-will vs. omniscience discussion, I saw a "Nova" last night which, coincidentally, was about the very subject we are discussing. It starred Dudley Moore who had talks with St. Augustine, Albert Einstein, and Isaac Asimov (playing himself). The name of the show was "about time", or something like it. Anyway, they tried to resolve the very issue of free will (outside spiritual realm, even, so no "omniscience" implied here). The answer, at least the one a gleaned from the show, was that the question cannot properly be addressed. I think, perhaps, that this is going to have to be our answer in this particular discussion. It's like asking, "What was God doing before time began?" The questioner is cheating by using the word "before" in his question; trying to put God within time to explain what happens outside it. But here is another experiment. I just thought this one up, so it's my idea and you can shoot it down if someone else already thought of it: suppose that there are two possible futures for you based on the result of a (free-will) decision. Assume again, that God (omniscient) sees both of these futures at once. To make this work, we will have to assume that God sees an infinite number of futures. Question(s): 1) Does this violate any Christian concept of God that I am not aware of? 2) Does this also violate the existence of free will, as Byron/Darrell/ Jon see it? If so, why? Note that this is not necessarily my view, but just trying to promote this discussion on a rational level. -- David Norris :-) -- uw-beaver!ssc-vax!david