Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pegasus.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!hou5d!hogpc!pegasus!avi
From: avi@pegasus.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Is Satan indistinguishable from God?
Message-ID: <918@pegasus.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 9-Feb-84 12:49:36 EST
Article-I.D.: pegasus.918
Posted: Thu Feb  9 12:49:36 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 10-Feb-84 05:18:07 EST
References: <602@seismo.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ
Lines: 72

seismo!carey asks:

C    Why do I never see the word Satan in this newsgroup and why does 
A    everyone blame God for bad things that happen, but I never see anyone
R    blame Satan for the bad things that happen? Is this a totally dumb
E    question or does it deserve an answer even? Thanks to anyone who cares
Y    to answer it, in advance.

It is not a "dumb" question, but it does assume that others believ in the
same mythology as you do, and don't have their own mythologies.
I am sure we have covered part of this in this group before, but I am
jumping into the fray again. The assumption appears to be that although
"GOD" is omnipotent and eternal (and 9 Billion other names and superlative
adjectives) s/he loses control over the universe because of something called
"Satan". I find this hard to swallow. Either there is one supreme being with
these qualities, or I might as well be an atheist.

I can't understand subdividing the godhead into a "Father", "Son" and a
"Holy Ghost/Spirit". I also can't understand the Devil/Satan/.../Beelzebub
subdivisions. If this supreme being is not in control of Satan, then they
are not supreme. If they can control, but choose not to, then they must take
responsibility for all the actions performed (at least according to my
morality on this issue). Therefore, saying that Satan is responsible, is
just a way of saying that "G-d" represents all Good Things, and that we are
praying to him/her to keep only the good things coming.

As Tim Maroney has often said, I would prefer to worship a being that can
take responsibility for everything that happens, and who allows themselves
to be judged. (I may be paraphrasing Tim rather loosely here -- but I am not
a Thelemist either). Western deities don't seem to qualify.

For some reason, the issue of God/Satan reminds me of the old question of
"What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?". As
Isaac Asimov once said, this situation can not happen. In a UNIVERSE that
contains an irresistible force, there can (by definition) not be an
immovable object!! The same is true for a universe with an immovable object
.... I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that logic of this sort does not
work when talking about religion.

In religious "dogma", God is both an irresistible force AND an immovable
object, and allows heavies like Satan to do the dirty work of testing the
faith people (like two day-old children) have in him/her. As I say, I
despair being able to have a "logical" discussion about this, because most
religions ( "most" :== less than all ) are not based on logic as applied to
our universe.

Does this even partially answer the question of why we blame the "boss",
instead of the underling who is just following orders?

P.S. The above does not indicate that I believe in any of the entities being
discussed. I am using those names for the sake of argument. I neither blame
nor give credit for anything that happens to outside entities. I believe in
the supreme laws of chance, and the perturbation imposed on them by the Holy
Heisenberg, Schrodinger and other followers. I believe that future prophets
will tell us more definitively about the undecidability at the lowest levels
of creation. This does not mean that I am not fond of religious and cultural
things in my personal life. It just means that I doubt that God interferes
in my life on a daily basis.

P.P.S. The above remarks are not specifically intended to be negatively
oriented toward seismo!carey, or Christianity. The remarks are generally
oriented toward religions that split their deity into several separable
parts. To a large extent, Judaism used to let G-d take responsibility for
all actions. More recently, particularly in the Chassidic movement,
mysticism has reared its (ugly?) head again, and the "Yetzer Horah" (the
evil inclination -- one potential topic for net.religion.jewish) has taken a
role analogous to the Christian Devil. I am against this development too. I
don't know enough about Islam, and other religions, to comment properly. Can
anyone else comment?
-- 
-=> Avi E. Gross @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6241
 suggested paths: [ihnp4, allegra, cbosg, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!avi