Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site drufl.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!floyd!clyde!burl!we13!ihnp4!drutx!drufl!pmr From: pmr@drufl.UUCP (Rastocny) Newsgroups: net.audio,net.flame Subject: jj's Re: Thoughts on subjectivity and specifications Message-ID: <782@drufl.UUCP> Date: Mon, 16-Jan-84 15:26:29 EST Article-I.D.: drufl.782 Posted: Mon Jan 16 15:26:29 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 3-Feb-84 02:49:52 EST References: many, <779@drufl.UUCP>, <2387@rabbit.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Denver Lines: 68 rabbit!jj, Now for some flaming in a place where it should be kept. First, I'd like to say that some of the things you've said about me are wrong, totally misquoted, and taken out of context. I think you've misunderstood me from the start. I may appear to be inconsistent and illogical to you, but you seem to be the only one who has this opinion. It seems like you don't even bother to read the entire article before you break out and write a nasty followup. Aside from you constantly misquoting and misinterpreting what I've said, I have no quarrel with you. Escept your inferences that subjectivity having no place, however, in the audioplace I feel is a crock. Tell me that each time you replace a component in YOUR system that you can't hear a difference (preamp, amp, cartridge, arm, or turntable). Swapping components in a system that you are intametly familiar with the sound is only one place to demonstrate subjective observations. Tell me what type of reference equipment your listening through. I'm not saying that you're not expressing the truth when you make your comments, just that you've probably never heard a state-of-the-art analog system and cannot make a just comparison. Have you ever listened to anything better than Hafler electronics, Shure cartridges, Thorens tables, and Acoustic Research loudspeakers? Digital systems win hands down in several spec areas (and by the way I never said that they were better than 78s): s/n, dynamic range, and THD/IMD. Fine. But digital players, like the Sony CDP-101 and the Hitachi DA-1000, still sound like s*** no matter what you say. I've been picking on phase because that's the only spec I can see that is not consistant with the original signal. I don't care what phono cartridges and RIAA networks do to the phase on analog systems, we're not talking specs, we're talking sonic accuracy. If it's not phase differnces that I (and about 30 other people that I know hear this problem, including the National Sales Representative of Denon) then what is it? Have you ever listened to these systems seriously? From what I've hears, CDs are OK. They will probably evolve their sonic quality just as cassettes did through their history. (I know, it's another format but the sonic quality did get a lot better. That was the point, not that cassettes are better than CDs. They're not.) When I first heard a Sony Walkman, I thought it sounded pretty good, until I really listened to it. Then I began to hear its shortcomings. Are you being fooled by CDs novelty? By its utter quiet? By the dynamics? (I know that you cannot hear distortion differnces. You've said it yourself that you can't hear distortion under 0.5%. Or are you going to change your mind "conveniently" as you said [unjustifiably] that I have.) Come on now. Flame away and make my day. It just bugges the H*** out of me when loud mouths like yourself spit out all this technical bull and then say that they've "read" that you can't hear differences in CDs (Stereo Review, et.al.) but never taken the time to see if you actually could hear differnces yourself. If there are no differences, then why do the British magazines and a few national mags who don't rely on advertising for their income hate the CD system? Most of the specs given with electronic gear you cannot relate to the sound. I (and many others) CAN hear differences between two equivalent-spec amplifiers, just as I said I could. Now, which sounds more accurate is another whole dissertation. FLAME here, not on net.audio -- or do you think you're above the net guidelines too? Do you also walk on water? Phil Rastocny