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From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman)
Newsgroups: net.women
Subject: Re: Nothing ever happens to people unless they want it to
Message-ID: <952@ut-sally.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 11-Feb-84 21:57:35 EST
Article-I.D.: ut-sally.952
Posted: Sat Feb 11 21:57:35 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 15-Feb-84 06:33:08 EST
References: <6452@watdaisy.UUCP>, <901@ut-sally.UUCP> <1676@randvax.ARPA>
Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas
Lines: 86

The Subject: above, by the way, was never mine and I don't agree with it,
as I have said in a previous posting.  I'm leaving it there only for
continuity of the discussion.

	From: edhall@randvax.ARPA (Ed Hall)
	Message-ID: <1676@randvax.ARPA>

	I don't think Sophie needs to back down from her statement implying
	that many men are potential rapists.  From what I've seen it's very
	hard to blame most women for worrying about this, at least in the
	backs of their minds.

She did not say or imply "many men:"  she said "you men," unqualified.
That is not at all the same thing.  That is what I was complaining about.
She acknowledged the difference when I pointed it out.  Why can't you?
Even if your figures of 1/3 of a college age population sampled saying
they would rape if they had a chance are correct, that does not mean
*all men* would do so.

	[details omitted:  see original posting]

	Such male behavior is considered `normal' in many circles.

	We've sexualized violence in our culture; the evidence for this is
	so pervasive that a lot of people deny that there could be anything
	wrong with it.  (Television, cinema, magazines, popular music--any
	mass media--shows our preoccupation with this.)  Sex is often seen
	as a form of aggression.  And some of the more hostile men among us
	rape as a result.  Others beat wives or girlfriends.  Not a
	majority, by any means, but probably a good 10-15%.  (References
	will be supplied for this, too--and there are a lot.)

I hardly think our culture has been the first to sexualize violence;
consider some traditional Moslem cultures.  Not to mention there is
evidence sex and violence are linked in the structure of the brain.
And it seems pretty clear that rape is an act of aggression using sex
as a means.

You might consider looking at violence committed by women, though
(for a reflection in the media, have you seen "Sudden Impact" yet?).
Some of the more hostile women among us rape as a result, too.  Not only
are there cases of rape of men by women, but there are cases of rape
of women by women, just as there are cases of rape of men by men.
That does not mean "all women" rape any more than "all men" rape.

	No, John Quarterman, I don't think that just because women have
	raped men in the past means that they should be equally worried (or
	unworried, as you claim) as men.  The chance of a woman making a
	violent sexual assault on me isn't much greater than that of my
	getting struck by lightning.  But the odds of a woman getting raped
	in her lifetime is variously put at from 1 out of 10 to 1 out of 3,
	on the average.  Here in LA the figure is almost 1 out of 2. (Once
	again, I'll provide references in a followup.)

			-Ed Hall
			decvax!randvax!edhall

I know the figures for rape of women.  Where have I disputed that?
You *think* you know your chances.  Where are your references?
Remember that rape of men by women was not even considered possible
until a few years ago and the chances of a man admitting it to the
police are quite slim.  Even rape by instrumentality has only recently
been recognized.  But of course everybody *knows* men have nothing
to fear from women....

Yet you are arguing with a straw figure you have set up, not with me.
Numbers are not the point:  Rape is a crime of violence; anyone can commit it.
But saying "all men" do is no more true than saying "all people" do.
Women are not innocent by virtue of being women and men are not guilty
by virtue of being men.  Down with stereotypes and pseudo-speciation.

I'd like to see you produce a quote showing where I said women should be
unworried about rape.  My contention was with Sophie Quigley's rhetoric.
As I said before, statements such as "The only solution is for you men
out there to stop raping us!" are inaccurate and counterproductive
seeing as they falsely accuse innocent people.  She knew what I meant, and,
as I suspected, she had only overstated her case in a moment of emotion.
I have no more quarrel with her.  In fact, I think her posting on suggested
rules for net.women was one of the best things I've seen on USENET for
insight, cleverness, and tact, and should promote useful discussions of
sexual politics more than most anything I've seen in this newsgroup lately.

I don't know who you are arguing with, but it's not me.
-- 
John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas
jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq