Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pegasus.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!vax135!ariel!hou5f!hou5e!hou5d!hogpc!pegasus!avi From: avi@pegasus.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Is Satan indistinguishable from God? Message-ID: <918@pegasus.UUCP> Date: Thu, 9-Feb-84 12:49:36 EST Article-I.D.: pegasus.918 Posted: Thu Feb 9 12:49:36 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 10-Feb-84 05:18:07 EST References: <602@seismo.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Information Systems, Lincroft NJ Lines: 72 seismo!carey asks: C Why do I never see the word Satan in this newsgroup and why does A everyone blame God for bad things that happen, but I never see anyone R blame Satan for the bad things that happen? Is this a totally dumb E question or does it deserve an answer even? Thanks to anyone who cares Y to answer it, in advance. It is not a "dumb" question, but it does assume that others believ in the same mythology as you do, and don't have their own mythologies. I am sure we have covered part of this in this group before, but I am jumping into the fray again. The assumption appears to be that although "GOD" is omnipotent and eternal (and 9 Billion other names and superlative adjectives) s/he loses control over the universe because of something called "Satan". I find this hard to swallow. Either there is one supreme being with these qualities, or I might as well be an atheist. I can't understand subdividing the godhead into a "Father", "Son" and a "Holy Ghost/Spirit". I also can't understand the Devil/Satan/.../Beelzebub subdivisions. If this supreme being is not in control of Satan, then they are not supreme. If they can control, but choose not to, then they must take responsibility for all the actions performed (at least according to my morality on this issue). Therefore, saying that Satan is responsible, is just a way of saying that "G-d" represents all Good Things, and that we are praying to him/her to keep only the good things coming. As Tim Maroney has often said, I would prefer to worship a being that can take responsibility for everything that happens, and who allows themselves to be judged. (I may be paraphrasing Tim rather loosely here -- but I am not a Thelemist either). Western deities don't seem to qualify. For some reason, the issue of God/Satan reminds me of the old question of "What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?". As Isaac Asimov once said, this situation can not happen. In a UNIVERSE that contains an irresistible force, there can (by definition) not be an immovable object!! The same is true for a universe with an immovable object .... I have a sneaking suspicion, however, that logic of this sort does not work when talking about religion. In religious "dogma", God is both an irresistible force AND an immovable object, and allows heavies like Satan to do the dirty work of testing the faith people (like two day-old children) have in him/her. As I say, I despair being able to have a "logical" discussion about this, because most religions ( "most" :== less than all ) are not based on logic as applied to our universe. Does this even partially answer the question of why we blame the "boss", instead of the underling who is just following orders? P.S. The above does not indicate that I believe in any of the entities being discussed. I am using those names for the sake of argument. I neither blame nor give credit for anything that happens to outside entities. I believe in the supreme laws of chance, and the perturbation imposed on them by the Holy Heisenberg, Schrodinger and other followers. I believe that future prophets will tell us more definitively about the undecidability at the lowest levels of creation. This does not mean that I am not fond of religious and cultural things in my personal life. It just means that I doubt that God interferes in my life on a daily basis. P.P.S. The above remarks are not specifically intended to be negatively oriented toward seismo!carey, or Christianity. The remarks are generally oriented toward religions that split their deity into several separable parts. To a large extent, Judaism used to let G-d take responsibility for all actions. More recently, particularly in the Chassidic movement, mysticism has reared its (ugly?) head again, and the "Yetzer Horah" (the evil inclination -- one potential topic for net.religion.jewish) has taken a role analogous to the Christian Devil. I am against this development too. I don't know enough about Islam, and other religions, to comment properly. Can anyone else comment? -- -=> Avi E. Gross @ AT&T Information Systems Laboratories (201) 576-6241 suggested paths: [ihnp4, allegra, cbosg, hogpc, ...]!pegasus!avi