Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site unc.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!ulysses!unc!bch From: bch@unc.UUCP (Byron Howes ) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: critiquing the (yawn) followups Message-ID: <6748@unc.UUCP> Date: Tue, 14-Feb-84 01:34:58 EST Article-I.D.: unc.6748 Posted: Tue Feb 14 01:34:58 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 15-Feb-84 06:32:02 EST References: <113@ccieng2.UUCP> Organization: University of North Carolina Comp. Center Lines: 110 I'm beginning to feel like I am in the middle of a pastiche story -- one of those stories where author A writes a couple of paragraphs, covers the first one and passes the manuscript to author B. Author B then writes a couple of paragraphs, covers all but the last paragraph and passes the manuscript on to author C etc. In order to put this all in perspective, I have tried to bring in the essential elements of this "discussion" from the beginning, with my own comments on Karl Kleinpaste's latest submission at the end. ---------- ihopa!dap : I believe that Adolph Hitler is God. What I would like you to do is to show me that this isn't the case. By the way, please make sure that you do not judge Herr Hitler's actions by any moral standards since he IS the standard and to judge him would be putting yourself above him. That is, everything Hitler does is right BY DEFINITION and I can never accept that any of his actions are less than perfect so please don't use any such illogic in your proof. ---------- Karl: Can I offer a counterexample? I would like to suggest that Adolph Hitler is not God, but I don't intend proving it by some moral standard. I would sug- gest that he is not God because Adolph Hitler is like any other man in very many ways. If he is like any other man, then he is (regrettably) a lot like me, and I *know* that I'm not any sort of God. Therefore, Adolph Hitler is not (was not) God. I think that is a reasonable sort of statement to make, since it avoids trying to pin some moral standard (over which we, as men, are never going to agree) on God. What I think my statement does is make Hitler guilty of non-Godly humanity by proof of human similarity. To pre-answer a couple of responses: Assertion: But since he is human, he is a god. (I *think* this would be Tim's statement.) Response: Umm...your opinion, which I don't have to accept, any more than you have to accept my assertion that humans are not gods. Neither is readily provable. Assertion: But you have used an external standard by which to make that choice. Response: I don't think so. I think I used a self-evident (to me) *internal* mechanism. Just a thought, seeing what might be generated. ----------- Byron: Karl Kleinpaste's counterargument seems to me to be peculiar in that it excludes the possibility that the deity in question may appear to be both a deity and human. Substitute the word Jesus for Adolph Hitler and the distinction will become clear. ----------- Karl: Well, I thought about that one for a couple of minutes, and I tried it out. I even edited the original version of my article, substituting the names as sug- gested. I don't accept the argument as stated (or as it appears to be stated; I have long since given up the belief that I fully understand anyone in this newsgroup, including myself at times), because the major point about Jesus versus Adolph Hitler is that Jesus was (in much more important ways) NOT like any other man. He had the form of a man, yes; but he did not behave as a man would on very many occasions. I do not reject the idea of man and deity being one entirely; I just think that there has been only one extremely special case. As I look around me, I see no one who appears to me to be sufficient to be viewed as a God. Jesus, on the other hand, does appear to do that. ---------- Byron: Karl, I thought the purpose of your counterexample was to disprove the asser- tion that Adolph Hitler was God by reason of human similarity and not by invoking any moral standard. It seems to me that when we exclude actions, attitudes or any other aspect of the personages being compared that might fall under evaluation by some moral standard, that we are left with two human beings who have considerable similarity to ourselves (two hands, two feet, bodily functions and needs, etc.) The areas at which they differ from the norm, and the consequent subjective evaluation of those areas, cannot be called into evidence by the criterion of your own argument! We are discussing disproving deityhood by similarity, not dissimilarity, to humans. [Note that this is a logical, not theological, argument. The original proposition was made for heuristic purposes and I had assumed that the fol- lowing argument was carried on in the same spirit. Then I, like Karl, often fail to understand many of the people in this newsgroup so there's no telling.] At any rate, if anybody has not edited Karl's original argument by now, sub- stituting the name 'Jesus' for 'Adolph Hitler' here it is: [The following by no means represents my own views but is offered only for comparison.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can I offer a counterexample? I would like to suggest that Jesus is not God, but I don't intend proving it by some moral standard. I would sug- gest that he is not God because Jesus is like any other man in very many ways. If he is like any other man, then he is (regrettably) a lot like me, and I *know* that I'm not any sort of God. Therefore, Jesus is not (was not) God. I think that is a reasonable sort of statement to make, since it avoids trying to pin some moral standard (over which we, as men, are never going to agree) on God. What I think my statement does is make Jesus guilty of non-Godly humanity by proof of human similarity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- My point was that if Karl's argument can be applied to Jesus as well as to Adolph Hitler with equal result then it fails to discriminate in a way which is useful for disproof of *any* individual as both deity and human. -- "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" Byron Howes UNC - Chapel Hill (decvax!mcnc!unc!bch)