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From: bch@unc.UUCP (Byron Howes )
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: critiquing the (yawn) followups
Message-ID: <6748@unc.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 14-Feb-84 01:34:58 EST
Article-I.D.: unc.6748
Posted: Tue Feb 14 01:34:58 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 15-Feb-84 06:32:02 EST
References: <113@ccieng2.UUCP>
Organization: University of North Carolina Comp. Center
Lines: 110

I'm beginning to feel like I am in the middle of a pastiche story -- one of
those stories where author A writes a couple of paragraphs, covers the first
one and passes the manuscript to author B.  Author B then writes a couple of
paragraphs, covers all but the last paragraph and passes the manuscript on
to author C etc. 

In order to put this all in perspective, I have tried to bring in the 
essential elements of this "discussion" from the beginning, with my own
comments on Karl Kleinpaste's latest submission at the end.

----------
ihopa!dap :

I believe that Adolph Hitler is God.  What I would like you to do is
to show me that this isn't the case.  By the way, please make sure that you
do not judge Herr Hitler's actions by any moral standards since he IS the
standard and to judge him would be putting yourself above him.  That is,
everything Hitler does is right BY DEFINITION and I can never accept that
any of his actions are less than perfect so please don't use any such
illogic in your proof.
----------
Karl:

Can I offer a counterexample?  I would like to suggest that Adolph Hitler is
not God, but I don't intend proving it by some moral standard.  I would sug-
gest that he is not God because Adolph Hitler is like any other man in very
many ways.  If he is like any other man, then he is (regrettably) a lot like
me, and I *know* that I'm not any sort of God.  Therefore, Adolph Hitler is not
(was not) God.  I think that is a reasonable sort of statement to make, since
it avoids trying to pin some moral standard (over which we, as men, are never
going to agree) on God.  What I think my statement does is make Hitler guilty
of non-Godly humanity by proof of human similarity.

To pre-answer a couple of responses:
	Assertion: But since he is human, he is a god.  (I *think* this would
	be Tim's statement.)
	Response: Umm...your opinion, which I don't have to accept, any
	more than you have to accept my assertion that humans are not gods.
	Neither is readily provable.

	Assertion: But you have used an external standard by which to make
	that choice.
	Response: I don't think so.  I think I used a self-evident (to
	me) *internal* mechanism.

Just a thought, seeing what might be generated.
-----------
Byron:

Karl Kleinpaste's counterargument seems to me to be peculiar in that it
excludes the possibility that the deity in question may appear to be
both a deity and human.  Substitute the word Jesus for Adolph Hitler and
the distinction will become clear.
-----------
Karl:
Well, I thought about that one for a couple of minutes, and I tried it out.  I
even edited the original version of my article, substituting the names as sug-
gested.  I don't accept the argument as stated (or as it appears to be stated;
I have long since given up the belief that I fully understand anyone in this
newsgroup, including myself at times), because the major point about Jesus
versus Adolph Hitler is that Jesus was (in much more important ways) NOT like
any other man.  He had the form of a man, yes; but he did not behave as a man
would on very many occasions.  I do not reject the idea of man and deity being
one entirely; I just think that there has been only one extremely special case.
As I look around me, I see no one who appears to me to be sufficient to be viewed
as a God.  Jesus, on the other hand, does appear to do that.
----------
Byron:

Karl, I thought the purpose of your counterexample was to disprove the asser-
tion that Adolph Hitler was God by reason of human similarity and not by
invoking any moral standard.  It seems to me that when we exclude actions,
attitudes or any other aspect of the personages being compared that might fall
under evaluation by some moral standard, that we are left with two human 
beings who have considerable similarity to ourselves (two hands, two feet,
bodily functions and needs, etc.)  The areas at which they differ from the
norm, and the consequent subjective evaluation of those areas, cannot be 
called into evidence by the criterion of your own argument!  We are 
discussing disproving deityhood by similarity, not dissimilarity, to humans.
[Note that this is a logical, not theological, argument.  The original 
proposition was made for heuristic purposes and I had assumed that the fol-
lowing argument was carried on in the same spirit.  Then I, like Karl, often
fail to understand many of the people in this newsgroup so there's no telling.]

At any rate, if anybody has not edited Karl's original argument by now, sub-
stituting the name 'Jesus' for 'Adolph Hitler' here it is:  [The following
by no means represents my own views but is offered only for comparison.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can I offer a counterexample?  I would like to suggest that Jesus is
not God, but I don't intend proving it by some moral standard.  I would sug-
gest that he is not God because Jesus is like any other man in very
many ways.  If he is like any other man, then he is (regrettably) a lot like
me, and I *know* that I'm not any sort of God.  Therefore, Jesus is not
(was not) God.  I think that is a reasonable sort of statement to make, since
it avoids trying to pin some moral standard (over which we, as men, are never
going to agree) on God.  What I think my statement does is make Jesus guilty
of non-Godly humanity by proof of human similarity.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------  

My point was that if Karl's argument can be applied to Jesus as well as
to Adolph Hitler with equal result then it fails to discriminate in a way
which is useful for disproof of *any* individual as both deity and human.
-- 

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

					Byron Howes
					UNC - Chapel Hill
					(decvax!mcnc!unc!bch)