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From: pmr@drufl.UUCP (Rastocny)
Newsgroups: net.audio,net.flame
Subject: jj's Re: Thoughts on subjectivity and specifications
Message-ID: <782@drufl.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 16-Jan-84 15:26:29 EST
Article-I.D.: drufl.782
Posted: Mon Jan 16 15:26:29 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 3-Feb-84 02:49:52 EST
References: many, <779@drufl.UUCP>, <2387@rabbit.UUCP>
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rabbit!jj,

Now for some flaming in a place where it should be kept.
First, I'd like to say that some of the things you've said about
me are wrong, totally misquoted, and taken out of context.
I think you've misunderstood me from the start.  I may appear to
be inconsistent and illogical to you, but you seem to be the only one
who has this opinion.  It seems like you don't even bother to read
the entire article before you break out and write a nasty followup.
Aside from you constantly misquoting and misinterpreting what I've
said, I have no quarrel with you.  Escept your inferences that
subjectivity having no place, however, in the audioplace I feel is a
crock.  

Tell me that each time you replace a component in YOUR system that
you can't hear a difference (preamp, amp, cartridge, arm,
or turntable).  Swapping components in a system that you are
intametly familiar with the sound is only one place to demonstrate
subjective observations.

Tell me what type of reference equipment your listening through.
I'm not saying that you're not expressing the truth when you make
your comments, just that you've probably never heard a
state-of-the-art analog system and cannot make a just comparison.
Have you ever listened to anything better than Hafler electronics,
Shure cartridges, Thorens tables, and Acoustic Research loudspeakers?

Digital systems win hands down in several spec areas (and by the
way I never said that they were better than 78s): s/n, dynamic
range, and THD/IMD.  Fine.  But digital players, like the Sony CDP-101
and the Hitachi DA-1000, still sound like s*** no matter what you say.
I've been picking on phase because that's the only spec I can see
that is not consistant with the original signal.  I don't care what
phono cartridges and RIAA networks do to the phase on analog systems,
we're not talking specs, we're talking sonic accuracy.  If it's not
phase differnces that I (and about 30 other people that I know hear this
problem, including the National Sales Representative of Denon) then
what is it?  Have you ever listened to these systems seriously?
From what I've hears, CDs are OK.  They will probably evolve their
sonic quality just as cassettes did through their history.  (I know,
it's another format but the sonic quality did get a lot better.  That
was the point, not that cassettes are better than CDs.  They're not.)

When I first heard a Sony Walkman, I thought it sounded pretty good,
until I really listened to it.  Then I began to hear its shortcomings.
Are you being fooled by CDs novelty?  By its utter quiet?  By the
dynamics? (I know that you cannot hear distortion differnces.  You've
said it yourself that you can't hear distortion under 0.5%.  Or are
you going to change your mind "conveniently" as you said [unjustifiably]
that I have.)

Come on now.  Flame away and make my day.  It just bugges the H***
out of me when loud mouths like yourself spit out all this technical
bull and then say that they've "read" that you can't hear differences
in CDs (Stereo Review, et.al.) but never taken the time to see if you
actually could hear differnces yourself.  If there are no differences,
then why do the British magazines and a few national mags
who don't rely on advertising for their income hate the CD system?

Most of the specs given with electronic gear you cannot relate to
the sound.  I (and many others) CAN hear differences between two
equivalent-spec amplifiers, just as I said I could.  Now, which
sounds more accurate is another whole dissertation.

FLAME here, not on net.audio -- or do you think you're above
the net guidelines too?  Do you also walk on water?  

Phil Rastocny