Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ut-sally.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!seismo!ut-sally!jsq From: jsq@ut-sally.UUCP (John Quarterman) Newsgroups: net.women Subject: Re: Nothing ever happens to people unless they want it to Message-ID: <952@ut-sally.UUCP> Date: Sat, 11-Feb-84 21:57:35 EST Article-I.D.: ut-sally.952 Posted: Sat Feb 11 21:57:35 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 15-Feb-84 06:33:08 EST References: <6452@watdaisy.UUCP>, <901@ut-sally.UUCP> <1676@randvax.ARPA> Organization: U. Texas CS Dept., Austin, Texas Lines: 86 The Subject: above, by the way, was never mine and I don't agree with it, as I have said in a previous posting. I'm leaving it there only for continuity of the discussion. From: edhall@randvax.ARPA (Ed Hall) Message-ID: <1676@randvax.ARPA> I don't think Sophie needs to back down from her statement implying that many men are potential rapists. From what I've seen it's very hard to blame most women for worrying about this, at least in the backs of their minds. She did not say or imply "many men:" she said "you men," unqualified. That is not at all the same thing. That is what I was complaining about. She acknowledged the difference when I pointed it out. Why can't you? Even if your figures of 1/3 of a college age population sampled saying they would rape if they had a chance are correct, that does not mean *all men* would do so. [details omitted: see original posting] Such male behavior is considered `normal' in many circles. We've sexualized violence in our culture; the evidence for this is so pervasive that a lot of people deny that there could be anything wrong with it. (Television, cinema, magazines, popular music--any mass media--shows our preoccupation with this.) Sex is often seen as a form of aggression. And some of the more hostile men among us rape as a result. Others beat wives or girlfriends. Not a majority, by any means, but probably a good 10-15%. (References will be supplied for this, too--and there are a lot.) I hardly think our culture has been the first to sexualize violence; consider some traditional Moslem cultures. Not to mention there is evidence sex and violence are linked in the structure of the brain. And it seems pretty clear that rape is an act of aggression using sex as a means. You might consider looking at violence committed by women, though (for a reflection in the media, have you seen "Sudden Impact" yet?). Some of the more hostile women among us rape as a result, too. Not only are there cases of rape of men by women, but there are cases of rape of women by women, just as there are cases of rape of men by men. That does not mean "all women" rape any more than "all men" rape. No, John Quarterman, I don't think that just because women have raped men in the past means that they should be equally worried (or unworried, as you claim) as men. The chance of a woman making a violent sexual assault on me isn't much greater than that of my getting struck by lightning. But the odds of a woman getting raped in her lifetime is variously put at from 1 out of 10 to 1 out of 3, on the average. Here in LA the figure is almost 1 out of 2. (Once again, I'll provide references in a followup.) -Ed Hall decvax!randvax!edhall I know the figures for rape of women. Where have I disputed that? You *think* you know your chances. Where are your references? Remember that rape of men by women was not even considered possible until a few years ago and the chances of a man admitting it to the police are quite slim. Even rape by instrumentality has only recently been recognized. But of course everybody *knows* men have nothing to fear from women.... Yet you are arguing with a straw figure you have set up, not with me. Numbers are not the point: Rape is a crime of violence; anyone can commit it. But saying "all men" do is no more true than saying "all people" do. Women are not innocent by virtue of being women and men are not guilty by virtue of being men. Down with stereotypes and pseudo-speciation. I'd like to see you produce a quote showing where I said women should be unworried about rape. My contention was with Sophie Quigley's rhetoric. As I said before, statements such as "The only solution is for you men out there to stop raping us!" are inaccurate and counterproductive seeing as they falsely accuse innocent people. She knew what I meant, and, as I suspected, she had only overstated her case in a moment of emotion. I have no more quarrel with her. In fact, I think her posting on suggested rules for net.women was one of the best things I've seen on USENET for insight, cleverness, and tact, and should promote useful discussions of sexual politics more than most anything I've seen in this newsgroup lately. I don't know who you are arguing with, but it's not me. -- John Quarterman, CS Dept., University of Texas, Austin, Texas jsq@ut-sally.ARPA, jsq@ut-sally.UUCP, {ihnp4,seismo,ctvax}!ut-sally!jsq