Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ssc-vax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!ssc-vax!david From: david@ssc-vax.UUCP (David Norris) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Free will and =time= Message-ID: <851@ssc-vax.UUCP> Date: Thu, 23-Feb-84 13:30:14 EST Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.851 Posted: Thu Feb 23 13:30:14 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 24-Feb-84 02:38:04 EST Organization: Boeing Aerospace, Seattle Lines: 68 Jon White replied to my latest entry into the free will discussion: > David Norris may be having "fun" in this discussion, but thus far he has > contributed little of substance... I hope this discussion isn't going to drift into the "ad hominem" type of argument we find so frequently on the net. For brevity's sake, I have deleted the rest of this type of material from Jon's article. Jon asked me to reply to each point in turn. I'll try (again) to reply to points 1 and 2, which are sufficient for now. But I think that we are beating a dead horse. > 1. It should be obvious that an omnipotent and omniscient being would not be > constrained by "our" time. Therefore, God, by definition, is in a constant > state of being everywhere (past, present, and future) at once. Because God > exists in the future (as well as everywhere else), it stands to reason that > there must be a future out there for Him to exist in. Therefore, God must > have created the entire lifetime of the universe at the moment of creation. > 2. If you accept the model set forth in step #1 (the entire lifetime of the > universe already exists), then you must accept that all of our individual > destinies are preordained by God. That is, we do not have free will. There are two problems with this: 1. Firstly, the statements in themselves cheat. Examples: a) "..created entire lifetime of the universe at the moment of creation" b) "..entire lifetime of the universe already exists" See? What does it mean that the entire lifetime of the universe already exists? Reworded, "the future already exists." Do you mean it exists *now*? The future doesn't exist *now*, it exists in the future. *Now* is a difficult word to apply to God, since it was invented and refers to being "inside" of time. Our past, present, and future are all part of God's infinite Now. God does not exist in the "future". He exists. Of course, the point I'm trying to make is that trying to prove Jon's point by "reaching outside of time", so to speak, is doomed to failure, because such questions are simply unaddressable. What was God doing before time began? The questioner is cheating; he has to reach back into time to phrase his question (as evidenced by the word "before"). If you disagree, keep the original question in mind and answer "When was the moment of creation?" This is yet another trick question, yet is the substance on which Jon's argument is founded. 2. This is going to sound like my old argument. You may assume, for the moment, that God does not exist. Does the concept of being "outside" time have any meaning? If so, then (by your argument) none of us have free will, since the future "already exists." It is important to note that this conclusion can be drawn outside of God Himself, and his omniwhatever. If you would state that there is no such thing as being "outside" time, I suggest talking to a physicist. At any rate, the omniscience or omnipotence of God has nothing to do with the argument. In summary, then, it seems there are the following choices: a) God is omnixxx, and we do not have free will b) God is not omnixxx, and we have free will c) the future exists, and we do not have free will d) the future does not as yet exist, and we have free will What has happened, I think, is that I have shown (a) to be false by saying that knowledge does not imply control. Jon's argument seems to revolve around (c), which, as I have said, cannot be properly addressed. If you disagree, be sure and include answers to the questions posed in #1 above. (This is still good fun!) -- David Norris :-) -- uw-beaver!ssc-vax!david