Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site burdvax.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!akgua!psuvax!burdvax!cng From: cng@burdvax.UUCP (Tom Albrecht) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Free Will vs. Omnipotence Message-ID: <1497@burdvax.UUCP> Date: Wed, 22-Feb-84 11:06:25 EST Article-I.D.: burdvax.1497 Posted: Wed Feb 22 11:06:25 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 23-Feb-84 05:07:49 EST References: <840@ssc-vax.UUCP>, <6791@unc.UUCP> Organization: Burroughs Corp. - SDG/Downingtown Lines: 88 <> From Byron Howes: >> Incidentally, this isn't a new problem for christianity. The Calvinists >> hit it dead-on and came up with a rather unique perception of grace >> and salvation that is still held by some flavors of Baptists today. ... >> >> The Calvinists, seeing this, allowed that any individuals state of >> grace had been determined and was unchangeable. To question one's >> status, however, tantamount to blasphemy -- challenging G-d. One >> worked as hard as one could, however, do *demonstrate* one's status >> in this world as material possessions were seen to be a sign of >> grace along with success. Needless to say, Calvinism did not enjoy >> extreme popularity among the poor. >> >> In this sense, the notion of predestination exists irrespective of >> free will. It isn't that G-d has set people down and wound them >> up like little automatons to make preset choices, but that the outcome >> of the choices -- in fact the choices themselves -- are seen as are >> the knots and tangles of a string of yarn. >> >> I hope this helps and I welcome corrections to the Calvinist notion >> of grace described above as it has been a while since I studied it. Calvinism is also the view of salvation held by most flavors of Presbyterians. The central theme of Calvinism is that God is sovereign over all His creation including salvation, i.e. because man is dead in his trespasses and sin, God must resurrect him from the dead in order that man may have a new relationship with God. Since man is spiritually dead he can do nothing to affect his own salvation, therefore God must choose to save some and pass by others. If God chooses those Whom He will save, then it follows logically that Christ need only have died for those Whom the Father has chosen and the Spirit need only quicken or make alive those who are chosen and for whom Christ has died. It should be noted that most of the objections to Calvinism have come from within the Christian community, not because it doesn't make sense (logically), but because many Christians just don't care for these doctrines. The Anabaptists in Europe made the strongest stand against Calvinism. Calvinism develops the doctrine of predestination found in the Bible. Concerning predestination, the Westminster Confession of Faith (the expression biblical truth used by most Presbyterian and Reformed churches) says: God from all eternity did by the most wise counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. Calvin had the following to say: Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. Regarding Byron's observations concerning Calvinism and the poor, I have been a student of the teachings of Calvin and other Reformers for a number of years I was not aware that material goods were a sign of divine blessing. In fact most of the Reformers, including Calvin, lived very simple lives and lashed out at the gaudy opulence of the Roman Catholic church. In fact, history shows that in those instances where the tyranny of the Roman church was thrown off the populace flocked to the Reformed churches. This was true in Switzerland and also in Germany and Scotland. It is true that Calvinism teaches ones condition here on earth should reflect the eternal relationship which God has provided, however, this condition is not judged in terms of one of material wealth, but of spiritual wealth. Doing good to others is the sign that one has been justified and is being sanctified by God. Calvinist see the acquisition of material goods as a means to helping others. We do not acquire things just to have them, but that we might provide for the needs of others and show God grace to all. For more information on the teachings of Calvinism and its practical side I suggest: "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., Phila., PA Tom Albrecht -- Burroughs Corp. ...{presby|psuvax|sdcrdcf|bpa}!burdvax!cng P.O. Box 235 (215) 269-1100 Downingtown, PA 19335